Master Faders

[travisbrown]

Right now if I bus to 5-6, create a master fader for this bus, it's not routed anywhere unless I create an aux track as well and assign an output. Except for folddown, this makes the master fader redundant.

Yes, in this regard, the Master Fader on the bus is redundant to the Aux track. Use the Aux track for the drum sub group. Use a Master Fader for final mix output.
Dave

Thanks Dave. That's the most helpful response yet, and you didn't even mention why you want to use compression

So I have all my stems on auxes - drums, vox, guitars, EFX, etc. All these have to be assigned to a hardware out and a master fader assigned to that out?

I think I see where my problem is.

How I typically did things is set up my stems, route them to a master bus (1-2) on an aux track, and then assign the out on the aux to hardware. I was doing it this way so I only had to switch one track to change the hardware out (say, from my interface to the built in outs). This is why the master fader seemed redundant.

[magicd]

Thanks Dave. That's the most helpful response yet, and you didn't even mention why you want to use compression

Dynamics? We don't need no steenking dynamics!

So I have all my stems on auxes - drums, vox, guitars, EFX, etc. All these have to be assigned to a hardware out and a master fader assigned to that out?

This is an interesting situation.
If you have a single audio track assigned to an interface output, and no other signal is routed to that interface output, then the VU meter for that audio track is giving you an accurate representation of what is going to that output. No need for a Master Fader on that output.

However, if you have multiple signals going to an interface output, the individual track VUs of that submix don't tell you what the final summed gain is going to the interface, and you have no way of using a common effect for the submix. So yes, in that case a Master Fader on the submix would be appropriate.

You can use Master Faders within the mix bus of DP, but I think a more common use to put Master Faders on interface outputs.

I don't think I'll ever stop thinking of audio in an analog signal flow model. When I do my routing in DP, I think as if I am using a very flexible external analog console. To me, Aux tracks are subgroups and effects returns. Master Faders are outputs from the console. I guess I just have an analog brain...

Dave

[travisbrown]

Yeah, I think about it as an analogue console too, that's why I want a master buss with folddown. I want to route all my subs to a master. I use the output of that 2buss effectively as a monitor switcher.

So the only thing not redundant in my situation is the folddown, I guess.

Cheers. Thanks for the help.

[Timeline]

Well dave the latency increases with a separate phone aux master does it not?

[toodamnhip]

One other disadvantage of the Master Fader is the potential for (recursive) double-processing. For example:

1) you bounce a 2 track of your mix, and in the process, you have it import the 2-track into your mix.
2) That is, you now have a new track which is the sum of your entire mix.
3) Naturally, you want to hear your bounced 2-track, so you route it to the Main Out and mute the actual mix.
4) As you play, you notice that it sounds different from your original mix, so you do a reversed polarity summation but you can't get anywhere close to silence when the two "identical" examples are summed.
5) Worried, you post in UnicorNation that DP sux because the bounce doesn't sound anything like the mix.
6) Finally, you notice that you're playing it through the Main Outs, but that Master track is still turned on. That means...
7) The full mix (bounced to stereo track) is now being processed a 2nd time as it goes out the Master Track.
8 ) Now you go back to UnicorNation and pretend that your bounced track suddenly started working all right, proving that DP just can't be trusted. It will unexpectedly...
9) change the sound of your tracks when you least expect it, but you're...
10) glad that it's finally working.
Whew!


Shooshie

They way to compare mixes is to route the master output to a stereo track which has a bus as it's input. I always make a stereo bus called INT MIX BUS.
The master(which has waves L3, and other mastering type processing), routes out to that Int mix bus ....All the sub tracks that would normally go to output 1-2, route should be sent to Int Mix Bus as their respective outs, all this sums into the stereo track who's input is set to Int Mix Bus...and the system is set to monitor input only.

Now, here's the trick..
After you bounce a mix, you have a stereo track right? It is your first mix let's say.
Well..make that stereo mix/track's input INT MIX BUS.
Route the whole LIVE mix to it, AND THE MASTER FADER, instead of routing to outputs 1-2and when you switch on and off the green input monitoring button, you immediately are comparing the live mix with the mix contained on the stereo track. It is seemless!...Pro Tools isn;t 1/2 as seemless as this. As a matter of fact, i always have to double check I am hearing the live mix when routing this way. I do so by clicking off the master fader for a sec and making sure audio stops..because it is such a seemless process, there is no click or anything telling you when you are live and when you are listening to the 2 track. Only the green input monitoring light changes. Don;t do this with the red record light as that can make a click and seems to switch the comp into a higher work mode for recording..just use the green input mode set to input only....this is a fabulous way of comparing mixes...you can IMMEDATELY A-B even the slightest changes...and, the original mix in the stereotrack does NOT get double processed through any master bus again...

[toodamnhip]

. A Master fader can not take one input and send it to a different output.

Dave

This is the clearest difference a master fader cannot take one input and change it to a different output!

[toodamnhip]

So now you have four good places to use Master Faders. The Master Faders you assign to outputs 5-6 and 7-8 are master volumes for their respective headphone mixes. The Master Fader you assign to interface output 4 is an effect send master. Etc...

Dave

This is excellent advice! I have been thinking of starting to use sends for monitor mixes but thought I'd have to tweak all those silly little send knobs to bring the levels up and down..now, I'll just use a Master fader..thanks Magic D

[Shooshie]

One other disadvantage of the Master Fader is the potential for (recursive) double-processing. For example:

1) you bounce a 2 track of your mix, and in the process, you have it import the 2-track into your mix.
2) That is, you now have a new track which is the sum of your entire mix.
3) Naturally, you want to hear your bounced 2-track, so you route it to the Main Out and mute the actual mix.
4) As you play, you notice that it sounds different from your original mix, so you do a reversed polarity summation but you can't get anywhere close to silence when the two "identical" examples are summed.
5) Worried, you post in UnicorNation that DP sux because the bounce doesn't sound anything like the mix.
6) Finally, you notice that you're playing it through the Main Outs, but that Master track is still turned on. That means...
7) The full mix (bounced to stereo track) is now being processed a 2nd time as it goes out the Master Track.
8 ) Now you go back to UnicorNation and pretend that your bounced track suddenly started working all right, proving that DP just can't be trusted. It will unexpectedly...
9) change the sound of your tracks when you least expect it, but you're...
10) glad that it's finally working.
Whew!


Shooshie

They way to compare mixes is to route the master output to a stereo track which has a bus as it's input. I always make a stereo bus called INT MIX BUS.
The master(which has waves L3, and other mastering type processing), routes out to that Int mix bus ....All the sub tracks that would normally go to output 1-2, route should be sent to Int Mix Bus as their respective outs, all this sums into the stereo track who's input is set to Int Mix Bus...and the system is set to monitor input only.

Now, here's the trick..
After you bounce a mix, you have a stereo track right? It is your first mix let's say.
Well..make that stereo mix/track's input INT MIX BUS.
Route the whole LIVE mix to it, AND THE MASTER FADER, instead of routing to outputs 1-2and when you switch on and off the green input monitoring button, you immediately are comparing the live mix with the mix contained on the stereo track. It is seemless!...Pro Tools isn;t 1/2 as seemless as this. As a matter of fact, i always have to double check I am hearing the live mix when routing this way. I do so by clicking off the master fader for a sec and making sure audio stops..because it is such a seemless process, there is no click or anything telling you when you are live and when you are listening to the 2 track. Only the green input monitoring light changes. Don;t do this with the red record light as that can make a click and seems to switch the comp into a higher work mode for recording..just use the green input mode set to input only....this is a fabulous way of comparing mixes...you can IMMEDATELY A-B even the slightest changes...and, the original mix in the stereotrack does NOT get double processed through any master bus again...

Um... Yeah, that's a good way to do it. But not nearly as funny as the one I described.

Shooshie