Breaking the ice on songwriting here at the U

[philbrown]

I've finally got time to read this thread and listen to the examples and you guys are gonna cut me off at 4 pages?!? Don't stop now, this is possibly the most interesting thread I've read (how's that for an interior rhyme?) on the U-Board. Keep it up, keep it up....
Stephen

Welcome Pappy!
We're not goin' anywhere anytime soon.
Your real name isn't Phil is it?

[kinnylandrum]

By the way two examples of lyrics I love written by someone in other than their native language:

Sting "La Belle Dame Sans Regrets" (in French, and interesting French, as much as my high school French can make out. Also a great tune)

Antonio Carlos Jobim "Waters of March" (yes he wrote the English lyrics, and I believe wrote them first before the Portuguese. He also made an effort, he said in an interview, to use as many English words as he could that did NOT have Romance language roots. How about that for making yourself a hard assignment! Also a great example of a list song, like Cole Porter often did).

Phil B, the Webb song "Paul Gaughin in the South Seas" is the opening song on his latest album called Twilight of the Renegades and it's on iTunes. Don't know where you can hear it for free, but I have it, and I once transcribed the words as a Word file if you're interested.

[philbrown]

Exactly how much sense do lyrics need to make?

A quickie guide to further pigeonhole music!
Add your category today!
Or delete mine!


Storytelling- within the song
examples:
Lots of country, folk and Americana songs.
Indigenous music around the world telling various tribal and family stories.
Jack and Diane - John Mellencamp
all the 50's "Johnny Drove His Chevy Off The Cliff and He's an Angel Now" songs
XTC - Love On A Farmboy's Wages


Storytelling- part of a larger story
examples
Opera
Broadway
The Who- Tommy
some concept albums


Literal
Most lyrics. Telling you what it's trying to say literally whether it's what dance to do, how to vote, relationships, whining about something or other, blah blah.
examples:
too numerous to list
just about anything with "Love" in the title


Storytelling/Literal but a bit more abstract/poetic/removed
Example:
Eleanor Rigby
Yesterday
I'll Follow The Sun
Dr. Robert
It Ain't Me Babe


Metaphorical - Poetic
Understandable from a poetic standpoint. At least you think you understand it.
Dylan-Hard Rain's Gonna Fall, My Back Pages, Baby Blue
Beatles - Fixing a Hole
Paul Simon
Disco Inferno (C'mon he didn't literally want his baby to burn in an inferno... or did he?)


Fair to Partly Abstract. Vague yet compelling.
Here you're not at all sure you know what the heck they're talking about, but you're pretty certain they do. These promote you forming your own imagery and meaning since there's no way to literally interpret them.
examples:
Steely Dan
Paul Simon
Dylan-Quinn the Eskimo
Yes
The Shins
Jayhawks
Pink Floyd
Led Zeppelin
Neil Finn


Extremely Abstract? Complete Nonsense? Singing words that just sound nice?
examples:
David Bowie
The Shins
Led Zeppelin
Yes
Pink Floyd
Dylan-Subterranean Homesick Blues
Captain Beefheart
Beatles: Hey Bulldog, Dig A Pony, I Am The Walrus (discuss)
Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey

Nonsense
The Name Game
Beatles: Hey Bulldog, Dig A Pony, I Am The Walrus (discuss)


------------------
Can you say "Sweeping Generalities"?
Obviously a lot of crossover here and no one band can be pigeonholed to this degree of course. I may be totally off-base with my examples and even the whole idea for that matter. Oh well. Just hoped to spark some discussion of this aspect of lyrics which was touched on earlier in the thread by Kinny I believe.

In pondering this over a few days - and thanks to you thought-provoking folks - I suppose you can get as abstract as you like as an artist, lyricist, songwriter- just as a painter can make that choice between abstract and realism with any brush stroke. I like Kandinsky, Klee and Captain Beefheart but I'm not asking anyone else to.

Goo goo g'joob, people!

[Frodo]

Storytelling-- oh, yeah. There must be a gazillion blues tunes that fit quite well into that category. And the ultimate showcase for lyrics (good or ill) might be rap since melody and harmony are often subjugated.

Good list, Phil. There's everything from soup to nuts there. I'll have to think about this before I could come up with another category. I could easily add to the song titles-- like for Nonsense-- "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" would be a good candidate.

[kinnylandrum]

I don't know, Phil, I'm kinda opposed to categories of all type (how about that for an oxymoron). It seems to be it's more like a continuum. (And speaking of Continuum I like the couplet from one of Mayer's songs that goes "Turn sixty-eight/You'll renegotiate".)

But I'll point out that I already brought up a type of lyric universally recognized, the "list" song. And also how about either social or political protest or comment songs? And as I previously pointed out about "Come Together", what makes that song work lyrically are the parts that AREN'T nonsense, but actually mundane.

Lastly I would put your boys Jellyfish alongside Steely Dan. Boy I really like those guys.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Speaking of lyrics... anyone ever EVER get the real lyrics to the tune "Fresh Garbage" ?

[philbrown]

Speaking of lyrics... anyone ever EVER get the real lyrics to the tune "Fresh Garbage" ?

By Spirit? It's on Youtube and sounds understandable to me... are we talking about the same song?

[philbrown]

While we're waiting...

Thought I'd jump in and give a BIG thumbs up to a song Kinny brought up: Paul Gauguin in the South Seas by Jimmy Webb. It's an amazing song IMO, especially from a songwriter's standpoint. Plenty to talk about, but it's out of context if you haven't heard it of course. It's going to be quite difficult and may take months but I really want to learn this song, one to play it live, and two to see what makes it tick from the inside out so to speak.

MLC you had mentioned us buying a tune from iTunes in the earlier thread about how to post examples of songs. So I'm sticking my neck way out here and recommending this one as it's available at the iTunes music store - the album title is Twilight of the Renegades, if that interests anyone. Almost 7 minutes for .99 - such a deal. Of course if you hate the snippet on iTunes don't buy it! And everyone else- I'm willing to take some heat if you don't like it. The singing is good and heartfelt but not dead-on at times so if that bothers you, take that into consideration. The snippet should give you enough of an idea. If you all think this is bad idea, that's OK too.

Here's his wiki bio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Webb
I don't think anyone would deny his credibilty as a songwriter, not to mention longevity. I plan to look deeply into his catalog and am ordering his songwriting book this weekend as well.

Happy weekend. I'm off to edit 20+ hours of audio.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

While we're waiting...

Waiting for what? For me to respond to your non-response? Re-read the post:

Speaking of lyrics... anyone ever EVER get the real lyrics to the tune "Fresh Garbage" ?

By Spirit? It's on Youtube and sounds understandable to me... are we talking about the same song?

I didn't ask 'did anyone ever HEAR the lyrics,' I said did anyone ever GET the lyrics - or for that matter find them in print?

So while I am still waiting for a response to MY initial question - I don't dog people about it, or post little 'bumps' when my knickers get a bit too knotted.

As for 'Fresh Garbage' it really doesn't matter. Now where were we?

Oh yeah, dead thread.

[Frodo]

[Pappy725]

It was a good thread, I hated to see it go...

[Jim]

Let's speak well of the departed.