Windows to Mac converts - your experiences please.

[billruys]

Hi folks. I've been a Windows DAW guy for many, many years. The PC platform has had it's ups and downs over that time, but problems have been solved and it's been a pretty stable platform, particularly from Windows 2000 to XP. I have stuck with the same DAW app all along and have been, and continue to be very happy with their product. I'm not going to mention the DAW app I currently use because I have a great deal of respect for the maker of the product. I also respect that this is a Digital Performer forum, and don't really want to start a DAW vs DAW fight.

However. Having been through the experience of trying to get usable performance out of Windows Vista over an 8 month period, I am slowly realising that Windows is no longer a viable DAW platform. Unfortunately I invested heavily in a powerful PC for my new DAW, which has left me out of pocket to jump ship right now. But I have decided that my next DAW will be a Mac and I will probably go with Digital Performer, because (1) I hear it's a good match to my current DAW and (2) I already have MOTU hardware (2408 Mk3 & 24I/O).

So, I'd just like to ask the folks who have been where I am now, how have you found the move? What have been the hardest things to come to terms with? What has been the best aspects of your move?

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

[FMiguelez]

However. Having been through the experience of trying to get usable performance out of Windows Vista over an 8 month period, I am slowly realising that Windows is no longer a viable DAW platform. Unfortunately I invested heavily in a powerful PC for my new DAW, which has left me out of pocket to jump ship right now. But I have decided that my next DAW will be a Mac and I will probably go with Digital Performer, because (1) I hear it's a good match to my current DAW and (2) I already have MOTU hardware (2408 Mk3 & 24I/O).

If you do so, I can tell you you WILL NOT be sorry. I went from Macs (in college) to PCs for a long time, to Macs again, and I will NEVER go back to PCs.
Having said that, I actually run a few PCs just as slaves, running Gigastudio. I can not begin to tell you just how easy, intuitive, and work-flow friendly Macs are. There is no perfect computer, they all may run into trouble a few times, but to tell you the truth, I can't remember when was the last time my Macs gave me any head aches. On the contrary, they allow me to just worry about my music, and not to fight with them constantly.

Just the other day I battled and fought and screamed at one of my PCs during a whole day. The stupid little battery in the motherboard got bad, and I spent an entire day configuring the BIOS, making it recognize all the HDs, etc. Every time I switch them on I feel compelled to sing a mantra, or a special chant. You just never know when you are going to get some unexpected crap out of them.

So, I'd just like to ask the folks who have been where I am now, how have you found the move? What have been the hardest things to come to terms with? What has been the best aspects of your move?

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

It took me a few weeks to dare making the definite move. It was so easy. What made me put it off for a while was that moving to a Mac involved learning a new DAW (DP) and get re-acquainted with Mac's OS. After a couple of weeks I was able to find my way around DP, at least the basics. Then, little by little, and after many coffees, I started getting into DP's more "hidden" and magical features.

All I can say, my friend, is that after a couple of weeks you will wonder why you didn't make this move before.

Also, a place like this, will be one of your most valuable resources. UN is full of knowledgeable, friendly and great people, who will help you with any rough moments you might encounter.

ENJOY the change!!

[IAMLFO]

Greetings billruys and welcome to the forum.

I switched from Windows to Mac almost 6 months ago. There were several reasons for it. 1) Frustration with Windows 2) Frustration with Steinberg (I had used Cubase for 8 years 3) Tired of trying to work around things like PC noise and having a butane heater for a computer. Honestly, my XP machine running Cubase SX 3 had no lockup issues or anything like that.

I purchased a 24 inch iMac (and plan to purchase a Mac Mini for some AU hosting) with two external Glyph drives. My experience thus far can be put as follows:

1) OSX is so intuitive I hardly had to reference help to get things done. Installations are a breeze, everything is packaged together nicely and I've found the complexities of Windows happily gone. For instance, I can plug and unplug USB devices into different ports and not have to reinstall software. OSX is not perfect, but my upgrade to Leopard from Tiger was a s painless as it could be with no ramifications.

2) I purchased both DP and Logic. I spend 80% of my time in DP. It is very different from Cubase, but different in a good way. I have had some crashing problems but given the new environment I'm ok with it.

3) Some of my favorite VSTs are not available on Mac. However, I am finding new ways of getting things done. I do miss some of them, though.

4) My iMac works great, is dead silent and is not a heater in my studio. This is *huge* to me. Almost too good to be true.

5) There are things to know that are very helpful in OSX world. Repairing disk permissions (in Disk Utility) is a biggie. Spaces are mans best friend. The dock (in Leopard especially) is great. MIDI/Audio setup is great to have. The list goes on...

Overall, I still find it strange that I've left an OS that I have been using since 1987 (Windows SAE) and have not looked back. Is Mac perfect? No, but it is one heckofalot better than Windows.

Hope this helps,

-Kevin

[FMiguelez]

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Sorry if I go a little OT here, but just out of curiosity, was Vista to you as big a fiasco as it's been written everywhere? What were the issues you were having?

Were those issues part of what made you want to move to Macs?

I read the other day that Microsoft was going to kill Vista and create "Windows 7"??? I just can't understand how and why Microsoft messed up on this one. I mean, they had years to make sure Vista would be flawless, and after all the drums and cymbals that they used to announce it, I keep reading it has been not only a major embarasment, but this will make them lose a big market chunk to Apple.

So, after all the time and money they threw at it, what exactly, or where did things go wrong with Vista??

[Shooshie]

Speaking of Spaces... imagine being able to run 2, 3, 4... even 8 or 9 monitors at once, all in the "space" of the one on your desk.

Look at this. You may have to scroll down a little. The article is about using DP with Spaces.

Not a perfect solution yet. I'm hoping they'll make DP "spaces aware" so that you can save setups that way. Still, it's such a huge time-saver and productivity enhancer for me that I don't mind setting it up every time I open a file.

Shooshie

[jliechty]

I think that a bit of the blame for the big Vista cluster can be placed on Microsoft, but blame must also be reserved for the third party developers who failed to even begin to work on updating their programs and drivers until after Vista's release. This seems almost inexcusable, because Vista betas and release candidates were available to the general public during the last year of Vista's development. I don't know why so many developers never thought that it might be good to test their apps with significant time to spare, rather than in the months following the deadline.

Some of my problems with Vista can be blamed on my "unusual" configuration. I've used Vista x64 from the day I tried the first release candidate, and it's shocking how many drivers and programs drop dead unexpectedly at the sight of [*gasp*] 4 GB of RAM. The many little annoyances also contributed to my eventual switch. I just find it mind boggling that copying files or unzipping archives in Explorer should be ten times slower in Vista than it was in XP. While I'm amazed that Microsoft left so many performance glitches and unpolished edges in the final version, I'm even more amazed that there are applications that still aren't Vista-ready.

It's getting late, so if I had to pick just one thing that I found most shocking about the Mac platform coming from Windows, it would be that moving from Tiger to Leopard was such a smooth and quick transition compared to the transition from Windows XP to Vista. Mac OS X isn't without its quirks and annoyances, but overall I still am happier on OS X than I ever was on Vista. Oh, and it also helps that Apple doesn't assume that I'm an evil pirate and constantly make me reaffirm my dedication to President Bill.

[billruys]

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Sorry if I go a little OT here, but just out of curiosity, was Vista to you as big a fiasco as it's been written everywhere? What were the issues you were having?

<SNIP>

So, after all the time and money they threw at it, what exactly, or where did things go wrong with Vista??

Vista really is an abortion of an OS from my point of view, particularly as a DAW platform. One of the big problems for audio is the fact that MS moved the audio hardware drivers out of kernel mode and into user mode. This has basically killed ASIO performance and even WDM driver performance is compromised. Microsoft's reasoning was that a bad audio driver in kernel mode could cause a blue-screen. So they were willing to jeopardise the audio performance of Windows Vista to eliminate the risk. The entire audio stack was re-written, making all the hardware accelerated sound cards useless in Vista. Granted this mainly affects gamers with their EAX hardware support, but they are all left in the cold.

The other biggie is not just the audio latency, but Vista's high system latency (well documented). This basically breaks Vista's ability to perform real-time or time-critical operations. This is why nobody running Vista can currently achieve the low latencies XP was capable of.

Many people also blame the huge amount of code dedicated to DRM in Vista. I'm not sure. All I know is that Vista is not capable of being a professional recording platform. You'll find that most of the companies that specialise in turn-key DAWs still won't sell Vista.

Vista's issues for audio all lie in the core design of the OS. For this reason, I don't think they will ever solve the problems. With Vista, MS has made a very clear statement to the creative community IMHO. MS are consolidating their platform as an office productivity platform and leaving us out in the cold. The irony is that the home theatre and gaming communities have also been badly hurt by this, who are groups that I would have though MS would have embraced.

Basically the PC's affair with pro audio is over - at best, its future is very uncertain. Anyone investing serious dollars in a PC DAW right now is taking a huge gamble IMHO. It's a gamble I'm not willing to take again. The fact that current PC DAW users are already pinning their hopes on Windows 7 (still vaporware) should tell you something. And this is coming from someone who's been doing this on the PC platform for 18 years!!!

[Shooshie]

I had no idea. Thanks for letting us know the score about Vista. I'm not very PC friendly, and still have left-over hard feelings from some of the Mac/PC wars of the 1990's, but I have to say that your story about Vista actually made me sad. I think the Mac is the platform everyone should choose for creative apps, but I never wished to put so many people in such platform jeopardy as Microsoft has apparently done to their own users!

If Apple ever did such a thing to us, then it would be all over. The industry would turn to dusting off old computers and living with obsolescence. Also, bad Windows means no competition, which means our prices might start going up. At least we've had to keep things reasonable, because if they get bad enough, costwise, we can always "get a PC." Sounds like those days are over, at least for a while.

Not good news. Very sorry for all those people stranded on PC's and not knowing whether to stay with XP, go to Vista in hopes of upgrades, or wait for Windows "Post-Vista."

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

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Thank you BillRuys, for such a detailed response.
I had heard things were bad, but not THAT bad

Not that I ever thought of upgrading to Vista, but I can tell my XP computers will run that for quite a long while. I mean, after all, they usually do their Sample-hosting duties in a relatively good manner... when they work.


Shooshie:
You're right. Competition is good. It's healthy. The lack of it can bring nasty things into life. Hopefully Apple takes this opportunity in a WISE manner, and sets some kind of good example and don't feel they are the only game in town.

I'm sure Mr. Jobs won't let us down. He seems to be pretty creative himself

[bongo_x]

I switched in '97, so it's ancient history now. But I bought a Mac very reluctantly, kind of pissed actually. I kept my windows machine and bought a copy of something-I-can't-remember-the-name-of software so I could run all those Windows programs I was sure I was going to miss. I kind of bought the whole story that I would be in Mac isolation and would need Windows for crucial things.

Surprise, I pretty much never touched the Windows machine again (except to play with Linux on it). I never used that program after paying all that money for it. Never.

This was 10 years ago and it's worlds better now. I can't imagine any drawbacks to switching at this point, unless you know you must use some specific software that's Windows only.

bb

[KarlSutton]

I have always been mac (since 1984) so I have not know any different. Recently I freelanced at a facility that uses Windows (not sure which version I think XP) for all of it's Pro Tools rigs. I was surprised at all of the "little" things that were missing (from Mac). Silly little things that add up over time.

Mac is not without their faults though, there have been some real turkeys (first gen G4/G5, Powermac 8100, & some others I'm forgetting.) I have to say lately I'm a little gunshy about any of Apple's first generation products. Same with their OS too.

All in all I think you will enjoy the switch, I know many people who have & do. Good luck.

[billruys]

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Thank you BillRuys, for such a detailed response.
I had heard things were bad, but not THAT bad

Not that I ever thought of upgrading to Vista, but I can tell my XP computers will run that for quite a long while. I mean, after all, they usually do their Sample-hosting duties in a relatively good manner.

I hope I haven't painted the picture too dark. There are some people out there that are actually using Vista as a DAW. But in my experience, they tend to be new users who have not known what it's like to run a DAW on XP and therefore have no point of reference, or home users doing very small & simple projects. All I know is that my new Intel quad-core PC on Vista didn't even come close to matching the performance or stability of my old PC running XP that had roughly quarter the power. I have been an IT professional in the "Wintel" world for all my adult life. It's partly my years in the industry that tells me this time the game is up. This is the first time in all that time that I can't see light at the end of the tunnel for the PC DAW.

The way I see it, even if I needed to run Windows, the Mac has that covered with bootcamp anyway. I really do believe you will see a lot of people like me knocking on the Mac door in the next year or two. Those of us that do audio don't have a voice with Microsoft because we make up such a small percentage of their target market. My gut feeling is that Mac is more a home for the creative types. If something broke in the Mac OS seriously breaking audio, I suspect it would be taken a little more seriously.

The saddest part about the whole thing are the great software companies that make excellent DAW apps for the PC platform. MS are hanging them out to dry. If MS don't do something radical, there'll be carnage.

[chucks]

I use both Mac and Windows and DP/Mac is my choice. That aside, and in the interim to your Mac transition, you could try Vista SP1 which is available as a Release Candidate (RC) at the MS downloads site. There's a significant performance improvement and a lot of under the hood fixes that may help your situation. My Vista box as been 'Snappier' (as folks around here like to say) since this install.

Also if Sonar is your DAW:

Some Cakewalk Sonar users are experiencing a significant improvement in low-latency performance under Vista when running WDMKS drivers after installing a (seemingly unrelated) Microsoft 'microcode reliability update'. The update is claimed to improve the reliability of systems that use Intel processors, and you can read about all the details and download it from http://support.microsoft.com/kb/936357

Since you've been at it for 8 months, you've probably tried these. But, just in case you missed them . . .

[williemyers]

... I spent an entire day configuring the BIOS, making it recognize all the HDs, etc. Every time I switch them on I feel compelled to sing a mantra, or a special chant. You just never know when you are going to get some unexpected crap out of them.

FM kind of nailed it right there. Mac OS X isn't perfect...far from it. But you'll *never* have to spend your time "configuring the BIOS". After all, what you really want to do is make music. You want to boot the computer, launch DP (or your favorite DAW) and start writing!

[jgest]

I switched in '97, so it's ancient history now. But I bought a Mac very reluctantly, kind of pissed actually. I kept my windows machine and bought a copy of something-I-can't-remember-the-name-of software so I could run all those Windows programs I was sure I was going to miss. I kind of bought the whole story that I would be in Mac isolation and would need Windows for crucial things.

Surprise, I pretty much never touched the Windows machine again (except to play with Linux on it). I never used that program after paying all that money for it. Never.

This was 10 years ago and it's worlds better now. I can't imagine any drawbacks to switching at this point, unless you know you must use some specific software that's Windows only.

bb

ditto with me and the time frame....I was an old cakewalk user. I loved it for MIDI, but when I tried to transition to pro-audio..... It just Never worked.....I got so stressed out by the episode I went bald
.......going mac grew some hair back, but the damage was done......Fortunately, instead of hair I got down to being finally in control of my creativity.