Interesting latency comparison

[filtertone]

FWIW, I thought I'd report some observations about latency. I'm a long time DP user, and am using a Mac Pro 8-core. I've been testing both Logic and DP with an Apogee Duet and a MOTU Traveler. I'm testing by tracking a guitar plugged into Logic or DP with NI's GuitarRig plug-in and judging the perceived delay from when you pluck the guitar string with a pick and hear it coming out of the speakers. Also judging MIDI latency by playing Ivory Piano. The project file size is medium (20 MIDI tracks, 10 audio tracks, 1 instance of MachFive and Kontakt each, 1 Altiverb, and a few Waves plugs) and identical on both platforms, and I'm just reporting perceived latency. This is not a scientific, measured comparison -- just my personal observations.

Logic 8 into Apogee Duet at 128: no noticeable latency at all. Pluck the string, you hear it back with no latency that interferes with your performance. Low CPU, no spikes.

Logic 8 into Apogee Duet at 256: still hardly any noticeable latency. Completely acceptable and easy to track your guitar parts with excellent timing.

DP 5.13 into MOTU Traveler at 128: CPU meter hits much higher and spikes, and there is noticeable latency. Possible to track parts, but would switch to Direct Hardware Playthrough for tighter timing.

DP into MOTU Traveler at 256: CPU meter medium, unacceptable amounts of latency for tracking a guitar.

Logic 8 into MOTU Traveler at 128: noticeable latency but better than DP into the Traveler, across the board. Not really suitable for tight tracking of guitar though.

Latency with DP through the DUET was no better than DP through the Traveler, appeared to be exactly the same to me.

Playing guitar into Logic thru the Apogee Duet reminds me of when I used DP through a ProTools system for 6 years or so, that is, both have no real noticeable latency.

Bottom line is, I don't know what Apple engineers and Apogee engineers are doing, but I'm very jealous of what they have achieved in terms of latency. I can track guitars with full FX through software amp plug-ins with the Apple/Apogee setup. I know MOTU has always been lauded for their audio drivers, but Logic/Apogee is on a whole new level. Amazing, but discouraging.

[mongoose]

Any reason you didn't test this with the Apogee and DP? That would be useful information.

[tommymandel]

I'm a poor one to talk, using a Digi A/D since my cpu outgrew my 2408Mk1, but is this why Motu recommends using Cue Mix on their interfaces, with a hardware unit as an insert, for low latency recording with effects?

i say i'm a poor one to talk, because a) when I'm in protools, I can use their low-latency monitoring (a menu choice for inputs 1 and 2), effectively eliminating latency, but b) when I'm in DP (which is at least 95% of the time) I am forced (due to my non-motu interface) to double route the input connector, so that I can monitor through the board. I turn Audio Monitor to OFF. That works for me, but me, I'm not worried about using software effects on input most of the time. So I can live with it, joyful for the space I gained selling my 24 track (and for the extra tracks DP offers!)

However, I agree with you that the differences in latencies between the various set-ups, is a complex issue. Motu can claim equal performance (through Cue-Mix), only if audible software processing on input is not necessary. (And you have to use MOTU hardware; this limitation is the same as with Digidesign - you have to use their hardware. This isn't ALL bad, as it makes troubleshooting a problem easier, with all hardware and software comng from the same company.

- But does this put Apple/Logic in a slightly exalted position, because you can record in Ivory or NI GuitarRig with no latency? To a musician, I can see this being critical. But as I said in this mazelike post, there are workarounds, using hardware and inserts.

[tommymandel]

Any reason you didn't test this with the Apogee and DP? That would be useful information.

Hmmm - good question, Mongoose...

[filtertone]

Any reason you didn't test this with the Apogee and DP? That would be useful information.

Oh yes, sorry, I left that one out by accident. Latency with DP through the DUET was no better than DP through the Traveler, appeared to be exactly the same to me.

[filtertone]

- But does this put Apple/Logic in a slightly exalted position, because you can record in Ivory or NI GuitarRig with no latency? To a musician, I can see this being critical. But as I said in this mazelike post, there are workarounds, using hardware and inserts.

Oh of course there are workarounds, but not for tracking with GuitarRig unfortunately. Anyhow, my point was really only the comparison of the two systems all in the box, monitoring through software effects, an apples to apples comparison (Cuemix, as we know, bypasses software effects). I wanted to point out that there are performance differences between the 2 systems in the hopes that MOTU may be able to do something about this in the future. They appreciate hearing from their users, and so I was just clarifying some differences by reporting my findings.

[richardein]

filtertone,

Thanks for your observations. As you and others note, there are workarounds, but man, would it be nice if we never needed them...

[Dwetmaster]

There's Hope in DP6

[mongoose]

Any reason you didn't test this with the Apogee and DP? That would be useful information.

Oh yes, sorry, I left that one out by accident. Latency with DP through the DUET was no better than DP through the Traveler, appeared to be exactly the same to me.

OK, it's nothing at all to do with Apogee vs MOTU on the hardware front then, so we can leave that out of the equation. It's specifically a question of how the software is reacting.

Now a couple more questions to make sure the software comparison is accurate, and useful: 1. what are the host multiplier and work priorities set at in DP? 2. What's the sample rate (and it's the same in both proggies, right)? Is plugin delay compensation on or off, and is that set the same in both programs?

-m

[Aramis]

Very interesting !

Now , I wonder if the Traveler is using or not the DICEII chip ?
I was planning to buy the new 828mk3 and I use a lot Logic 8 in those days .
I am using it on a G5 and an RME pci interface and decided recently to try my MIDI Guitar thru Logic effects and effectively , I did notice it was usable more than with DP .

I know that the DICEII chip brings a better latency to firewire acording to my readings .

Aramis

FWIW, I thought I'd report some observations about latency. I'm a long time DP user, and am using a Mac Pro 8-core. I've been testing both Logic and DP with an Apogee Duet and a MOTU Traveler. I'm testing by tracking a guitar plugged into Logic or DP with NI's GuitarRig plug-in and judging the perceived delay from when you pluck the guitar string with a pick and hear it coming out of the speakers. Also judging MIDI latency by playing Ivory Piano. The project file size is medium (20 MIDI tracks, 10 audio tracks, 1 instance of MachFive and Kontakt each, 1 Altiverb, and a few Waves plugs) and identical on both platforms, and I'm just reporting perceived latency. This is not a scientific, measured comparison -- just my personal observations.

Logic 8 into Apogee Duet at 128: no noticeable latency at all. Pluck the string, you hear it back with no latency that interferes with your performance. Low CPU, no spikes.

Logic 8 into Apogee Duet at 256: still hardly any noticeable latency. Completely acceptable and easy to track your guitar parts with excellent timing.

DP 5.13 into MOTU Traveler at 128: CPU meter hits much higher and spikes, and there is noticeable latency. Possible to track parts, but would switch to Direct Hardware Playthrough for tighter timing.

DP into MOTU Traveler at 256: CPU meter medium, unacceptable amounts of latency for tracking a guitar.

Logic 8 into MOTU Traveler at 128: noticeable latency but better than DP into the Traveler, across the board. Not really suitable for tight tracking of guitar though.

Latency with DP through the DUET was no better than DP through the Traveler, appeared to be exactly the same to me.

Playing guitar into Logic thru the Apogee Duet reminds me of when I used DP through a ProTools system for 6 years or so, that is, both have no real noticeable latency.

Bottom line is, I don't know what Apple engineers and Apogee engineers are doing, but I'm very jealous of what they have achieved in terms of latency. I can track guitars with full FX through software amp plug-ins with the Apple/Apogee setup. I know MOTU has always been lauded for their audio drivers, but Logic/Apogee is on a whole new level. Amazing, but discouraging.

[mongoose]

Very interesting !

Now , I wonder if the Traveler is using or not the DICEII chip ?
I was planning to buy the new 828mk3 and I use a lot Logic 8 in those days .
I am using it on a G5 and an RME pci interface and decided recently to try my MIDI Guitar thru Logic effects and effectively , I did notice it was usable more than with DP .

Aramis, according to his followup post the perceived latency was identical with the Traveller and the Duet. So the differences he's hearing have nothing to do with the interface.

[Aramis]

Oh ok ! you are right .

I tough he mentionned a difference with the Traveler

Good so !

I am still lurking this 828mk3

-)

Aramis

Very interesting !

Now , I wonder if the Traveler is using or not the DICEII chip ?
I was planning to buy the new 828mk3 and I use a lot Logic 8 in those days .
I am using it on a G5 and an RME pci interface and decided recently to try my MIDI Guitar thru Logic effects and effectively , I did notice it was usable more than with DP .

Aramis, according to his followup post the perceived latency was identical with the Traveller and the Duet. So the differences he's hearing have nothing to do with the interface.

[tim57var]

I guess I've gotten used to playing with a bit of latency, as am sure everyone has by now. I use MOTU hardware only. Here's my 2 cents with regard to VI latency. I run DP with a 128 buffer setting, and latency is acceptable. If I need to up it to 256, it gets tough to play parts that have critical timing - drums, perc, piano, bass, etc. However, in Logic, i run the buffer at 256, and it feels like DP at 128. I always thought numbers were numbers, but apparently not!

[grimepoch]

One thing you may not be aware of is the fact that when you put a channel to record on Logic, it can dynamically change the buffer size for that track alone. This is why Logic is able to get much tighter latency on tracking tracks

I came across a lot of this info when listening to a discussion with Apple Engineers and a software programmer writing a convolution plugin. The programmer wanted to know if the buffer size was fixed once set on a plugin, and that is where the discussion began that it was not.

This is one area of Logic that is really astounding. Additionally, you can set tracking tracks to go with low latency mode which is a setting you make that says any plugins that take longer than x amount of time, shut them off while in this mode. Certain plugins are just VERY slow (UAD) in terms of latency and NOT buffer size.

I feel pretty confident in saying this is the difference you are experiencing between both programs.

[mongoose]

One thing you may not be aware of is the fact that when you put a channel to record on Logic, it can dynamically change the buffer size for that track alone. This is why Logic is able to get much tighter latency on tracking tracks...
I feel pretty confident in saying this is the difference you are experiencing between both programs.

Aha, that explains it! I was really scratching my head trying to figure out how he could possibly be getting different latencies with the same buffer setting--if the buffer setting is actually lower on the record-armed track in Logic that makes sense.

That's a pretty darn slick trick!