Virtual Pianos vs. Real Piano: which is which?

[mhschmieder]

I guess none of you guys are gigging musicians -- I didn't see this post until it was already closed .

I haven't used Akoustik in so long that I wasn't entirely confident of my choices for #1 and #2, but was clear that #3 was "live". The only real reason I thought #2 was Akoustik was the extra "noise" and "breathing". The reason I wasn't confident of my choice was that #1, which I guessed correctly to be Ivory, seemed to have compression artefacts in the lower register. After reading Shooshie's explanation, I now am unsure whether that was the Waves L4 Maximiser at work, or a reflection of the original samples.

Well, it doesn't really matter, due to the point of this exercise. All three sound passable (as the real thing), but clearly #3 for me was by far the most pleasing and relaxing to listen to, and gives me a benchmark against which I would measure my own efforts the next time I mic up an acoustic piano vs. using a VI.

The tweaking of #1 and #2 gives me more hope as well for sample-based piano VI's, but as everyope knows, I gave up on Akoustik long ago (and can't consider Ivory due to its CPU requirements) as I simply don't have that sort of time at my disposal and have quicker success with Pianoteq and General Music's DRAKE-based sampled/modeled pianos.

As recently as three to five years ago, it probably would have been pointless to even have this exercise -- that's how far "digital pianos" have come in that time.

[donreynolds]

1. akoustic
2. live
3. ivory

[Splinter]

So the point of all that, boiled down, is that a *well mic'd piano* is always going to sound better than a VI.

Couldn't agree more. There is simply no way for samples to reproduce the harmonic interaction of real piano strings. Unless somehow Convolution technology could be used. Hmmmmm....

Seconded. Except I don't think I'll ever be convinced about the 'superiority' of a sampled version of a great acoustic instrument. Call me dense (or closed minded <ahem>). But I'll take a quality acoustic instrument over any sample - any time.

Thirded. Despite the sound of the VIs, which was inferior in everyway, the dynamics of the real piano had more depth and the sound was more open. As I said before, the VIs were mushy. I like my 7 year old Alesis NanoPiano as much as these.

Honestly, I've heard demos of Ivory that sounded far superior to this demo, so whatever Shooshie did to this recording or how he tweaked Ivory brought it down in my book even though I've never actually used it. That sounded like no C7 I've ever heard. Not even close.

Oh well, I'm stuck recording real pianos... at least for a few more years. That's OK, it'll keep me working. Right now, I have a client who has written 7 albums worth of material for instrumental piano that we're recording at his house where he has a 1917 Steinway in pristine condition. It sounds big, fat, rich, and... real.

[James Steele]

We really need to change the name of this board to "PontificaNation"

All smileys aside... Anyone is free to voice their opinions here.

[wheever]

All smileys aside... Anyone is free to voice their opinions here.

No they're not!

...but that's just my opinion.

[Shooshie]

Damn.

I was really hoping that the better sounding piano 3 was actually something I could go out and purchase... errrr... I mean... that I could afford to purchase.

There is simply no way for samples to reproduce the harmonic interaction of real piano strings.

In these particular examples, I am not so sure that the better sounding quality of piano 3 is so much a result of the VI versions being unable to reproduce the harmonic interaction of real piano strings. I think piano 3 is the best sounding recording mostly because (as a result of Shooshie's good micing technique) it has (1) more presence, and (2) an overall even quality across the keyboard. The higher notes are bright and clear but still balanced with the lower notes. The VI pianos failed in this regard, and I wonder if convolution reverb had something to do with reducing the balance of different frequencies.

Reverb had nothing to do with Ivory. It was clean.

Someone mentioned a concern about the L3 possibly affecting the sound adversely. I assure you it did not adversely affect the sound. It brought up the loudness so that the recording was similar to the mastered CD recording. I DO believe that I may have brought unnecessary shame upon Ivory by trying to make it sound LIKE the recording, rather than trying to make it sound its best. In trying to reduce the clues that would give it away, I may have compromised its sound.

I've been listening to about 30 recordings of this same song along with 2 others that we recorded for the same purpose. Each example has different mic positions, and I've been comparing them all to Ivory and Akoustik Piano. All but the worst micced examples of the real thing sound cleaner than either VI, so that's a fact we have to live with until someone comes up with a new Piano VI to end all Piano VIs. The worst sounding "real" pianos, however, sound unusable, whereas Ivory and AP sound good, just not as clear as these.

I'd post examples of what I'm talking about, but I suspect people are tired of this by now, so I'll let it rest. In the process, however, I've learned a lot about both of my VI's, and about real pianos as well. It was a good exercise for me, anyway. And... I am more confident than before about using VI's. I think Akoustik Piano is perhaps the best VI available currently, if you know how to tweak it! I must admit, however, that I have only just now learned more tricks on Ivory which may make it AP's equal. It's too bad they did not give us better defaults and presets.

If anyone wants to do another round of this, I can promise you it would be interesting, and possibly with fewer people able to guess the right ones. But unless I hear a number of people saying let's do it, I'll just leave it be and maybe return to it another day.

Shooshie

[zed]

I'd post examples of what I'm talking about, but I suspect people are tired of this by now, so I'll let it rest...If anyone wants to do another round of this, I can promise you it would be interesting, and possibly with fewer people able to guess the right ones. But unless I hear a number of people saying let's do it, I'll just leave it be and maybe return to it another day.

I think it was very gracious of you to take the time to create this exercise, and I wouldn't want you to feel any compulsion or responsibility to do another round... but that would only be for the protection of your time, and not for my lack of interest. If ever you want to do some more of this, I will happily participate. I find this stuff fascinating and I'm not tired of it at all. I think it would, in fact, be quite educational to hear more variations of the same piano using different mic placements. But I am putting no pressure on you... I'm just underlining my enthusiasm.

[dave pine]

that piano would make a great vi, it's perfect that it's a disclavier, set up the mikes, record 88 x 16 velosity levels, and you're in business.

[Shooshie]

that piano would make a great vi, it's perfect that it's a disclavier, set up the mikes, record 88 x 16 velosity levels, and you're in business.

Oh, you don't know how many times I've thought about that. I'd still like to do it. I don't know if it's possible. The five pianos belonged to our friend and producer/manager. Since Ariel died last August, she's gone into seclusion. She won't talk to me, even though I'm one of her all time best friends. She says it's too painful. I've not had the courage to ask what has happened to the Disklaviers. I'm hoping everything is still set up as we left it, but it may have been dismantled due to the painful reminders. I'm just thankful that I had able to contribute to such an amazing and wonderful project over so many years. The irony is that we had just been given our own room in one of the very top hotel/casinos in Las Vegas, and would have opened around now, for a run that could have lasted the rest of our lives. He died a week after we got the news.

Of course, there are other Disklaviers, and I know people who have access to them. It's just a matter of inertia.

Shooshie

[Timeline]

I want a Steinway with a diskclavier built in!

[juan_alexei]

If you want to listen this with Pianoteq, send the Midifile, I'll convert it.

I fiund pianoteq to sound very natural if not the most realistic.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I want a Steinway with a diskclavier built in!

I'll take the Boesendorfer Imperial Concert Grand with their playback system... (even without the playback system).

Anyone have $250k I can have?

[zed]

Sad story Shooshie. A disappointing turn of events.

I never really knew what a Disklavier was until looking into them after following this thread. What a terrific solution. I can't afford one right now, but I think I may gear towards getting one over the course of the next few years. It seems like a great option to be able to work out your performance and then record the final track by playing the MIDI through a properly miced Disklavier. Love that idea. Think I'll head to my local music store and see if I like the sound of the upright Disklavier.... they are only around $6500.

[tim57var]

Thanks for putting these samples up -
I rely on Ivory every day in my productions, and feel it's pretty close
to having the real deal - it's very musical, responds well to dynamics, and speaks well in tracks. It's also very versatile in terms of sonic control, not to mention the different piano samples. Having said that, there's no comparison, in my opinion, between the live piano and the samples in terms of dynamics and sonic depth here. The Ivory and NI tracks are very musical, and sound great really, but the Live piano has much more dynamic expression than the others. I guess it's time for me to add that other room onto my studio and buy a real piano again!! Thanks for costing me another $100,000+ !!!!!!!

[Renaissance Man]

Sooshie,
I'm sorry to hear about your loss and how it's affected your friendship. I know all to well that dealing with the loss of someone close can be a most difficult thing.
My best friend and musical "partner in crime" died suddenly in November '05. I have become the caretaker of his body of work and am working toward producing a posthumous CD release to honor him. Thankfully, a good deal of his work is archived in MIDI files. I••™ve run across a few DP projects with him singing and it••™s a deeply sad and difficult thing to deal with. It••™s been hard for me to keep it together when working on his project but I know it••™s the right thing to do.
Your friend may take a long time to open back up. In my experience, you never really recover you just learn to live with it.
Please forgive me if I••™ve overstepped my bounds here, but I thought it worth saying.
Christopher