DP & Leopard... UPDATE: DP 5.13 is out!

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:45 am

woodyreed wrote:
Frodo wrote:You know, Logic tends to studder a little on first playback, something which may have driven DP to crash on first try. Maybe it's an OSX thing?
Not experienced that. I just finished day 2 of a 3 day Logic 8 certification class - wow, what a program! I couldn't wrap my head around Logic 7, but Logic 8, holy cow. DP got to me when I upgraded to a MacPro in sept 06. Out of 15 years of performer/DP, that upgrade "crashed" my patience. DP is sooo far behind the mac hardware/OS curve, I'll never go back. I loved DP. I can run it blind folded. It was already behind with a lot of features (#1 being latency), but the constant crashing sealed it's fate. Lack of plug-in support, can't use OS 10.5? Enough with the boundaries. How long did it take to get MACH V to work on Intel Macs? We deserve better than that. Much better.

Sorry for the cometary, I had to get it off my chest.

Not a problem! Why didn't you realize that I created the UnicorNation.com site for the expressed purpose of people who are unhappy about DP and want to rave about how much better program X or Y having a place to go to complain about it? People think I put this site up for users to share productivity tips or help solve problems, but really this forum is all about venting.

BTW, I'm using 5.13 with Leopard and it's working great!!! I don't know why you're having problems.

woodyreed · Post by **woodyreed** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:53 am

jnunally wrote: So needless to say I am ready to take a look again at Logic with what I am hearing about 8.
By the way, do you have any experience with the HD192 and Logic 8? If so, how well does CueMix work when working in Logic. Any latency issues?

Jim

DP5.12 & 5.13, MacBook 10.4.11 Traveler, Mac Pro 2.66/10.4.8 HD192, PT LE 7.1, OO2R.

I had the motu 424 card/system when I upgraded to the MacPro. With all the DP crashes I had, I bought Logic 7 (sept 06). I had all my synths and stuff plugged into various interfaces ((2)2408s, (1)1296) and ran CueMix with no issues. That said, there is no "direct hardware play through" in Logic that works like DPs (not that I have found yet). I couldn't wrap my head around the "environment window" in 7 and that's what kept me form using it full time then. 8 doesn't use the environment at all. I can run Logic 8 with 64 samples in the buffer setting with absolutely no issues. DP would laugh at me if tried that. So in Logic, I can monitor through fx, with sends, route the signal, etc, with no issues concerning latency - even with VIs. The VI delay in DP is really unacceptable. I have no idea why Logic can deal with the latency issue and MOTU can't. It's the same hardware! Unless Apple is hiding something from them in the code, there is no excuse. I should also mention I run 24/96. Also, through my frustration with DP and Intel Macs and crashes, I also upgraded to a Apogee symphony system. I still have my 424 card, but I never use it.

We went over writing to video yesterday. Some really amazing features there for sure.

You are correct about the "dealing with respect" issue. Any time I'd call they would pretend I was the only person having any issues and they never resolved them on the phone. Only months later when a update came out. Then no MACH V! - It gets my blood boiling just thinking about those days. I used DP 5.12 up until 2 months ago (still use 4.6 for live track play back) when I made the permanent switch L8. DP was running fine (I knew what not to do), but that's no way to have a relationship. I can't be in fear of new technology and afraid to upgrade. Main stage is also a killer app for live. All this for $500.

I came on the board yesterday just to see what was going on lately. My interest was sparked by the Logic class. I didn't even know DP 5.13 was out. I got 5.12 to work OK and wouldn't dare think of upgrading it. I just wanted to share that there is a release for peoples frustrations. Is does sadden me to say it though.

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:59 am

And thinking that Logic 8 works 100% all the time with no crashes and no troubles is definitely not true. I use both programs and can tell you they both have their share of issues. For instance, in Logic:

1) Random crashing every once in awhile
2) Comps moving around in time when reloading a project.
3) CoreAudio stopping for no reason, so no sound coming out.
4) Sequences just stopping while playing back for no reason.
5) Inconsistent CPU usage and spiking when reloading projects.
6) Undo on flatten on unpacked audio tracks can COMPLETELY destroy the placement of regions on tracks. This is REALLY BAD!

And this is just a quick list off the top of my head. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I am saying they each have their problems and workarounds. I like them both and continue to use them both on a regular basis.

woodyreed · Post by **woodyreed** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:08 am

James Steele wrote: Not a problem! Why didn't you realize that I created the UnicorNation.com site for the expressed purpose of people who are unhappy about DP and want to rave about how much better program X or Y having a place to go to complain about it? People think I put this site up for users to share productivity tips or help solve problems, but really this forum is all about venting.

BTW, I'm using 5.13 with Leopard and it's working great!!! I don't know why you're having problems.

Sorry James. I meant no disrespect to you. I can only imagine how much heart, soul, and time you put into this sight. In all honesty, if it wasn't for your forum and the great minds that posted here, I would have thrown my system through my studio window a year ago (and I don't even have a window in my studio). Your site was the best tech support I received. Please delete any and all of my posts that crossed the line. I apologize from the bottom of my heart.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:09 am

woodyreed wrote:I came on the board yesterday just to see what was going on lately. My interest was sparked by the Logic class. I didn't even know DP 5.13 was out. I got 5.12 to work OK and wouldn't dare think of upgrading it. I just wanted to share that there is a release for peoples frustrations. Is does sadden me to say it though.

5.13 works better than 5.12, but you don't want to upgrade? Okay. And you're just here on this board to "share that there is a release for peoples frustrations?" In other words your purpose here is just to promote Logic?

If so, use the OT Forum at least. Thanks.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:10 am

woodyreed wrote:
James Steele wrote: Not a problem! Why didn't you realize that I created the UnicorNation.com site for the expressed purpose of people who are unhappy about DP and want to rave about how much better program X or Y having a place to go to complain about it? People think I put this site up for users to share productivity tips or help solve problems, but really this forum is all about venting.

BTW, I'm using 5.13 with Leopard and it's working great!!! I don't know why you're having problems.
Sorry James. I meant no disrespect to you. I can only imagine how much heart, soul, and time you put into this sight. In all honesty, if it wasn't for your forum and the great minds that posted here, I would have thrown my system through my studio window a year ago (and I don't even have a window in my studio). Your site was the best tech support I received. Please delete any and all of my posts that crossed the line. I apologize from the bottom of my heart.

We went through a rough spot back there, Woody, but DP 5.13 is running pretty well now. I have an occasional freeze-up when hitting rewind. I'm not sure if there are any particulars; right now it seems random and very rare. I remember when you were here wanting less latency, and I don't remember all the particulars, but I'm glad you finally got what you want.

As for me? I never had any trouble with latency in DP. I use the Cue-Mix method, and it's just not a problem. These days I'm often just recording with VI's, anyway, and latency isn't a problem at 128 buffer. Personally, I don't see how anyone works in MIDI on Logic. I find that to be a wall-banging exercise in frustration. But I have tracked in Logic, and ported it to DP for editing, mixing, and mastering. DP is simply superior in those areas.

To each his own, I guess.

Shooshie

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:44 am

Heh, which is funny, because I am the opposite. I think working with MIDI in Logic is absoltely amazing, HOWEVER, I find recording and working with audio in Logic is archaic and very painful. The comp feature is the only thing I like in the audio area and that doesn't make up for the pain. If I am tracking all audio, no doubt, I am in DP where it works smooth and as expected

Shooshie, I too get the lock on rewind occassionally. Do you use UAD cards? I notice it is more prevelent the more complex my project gets. Also, the more UAD plugs I use. I've never been able to track it down and MOTU has been no help about it yet. I can understand, because it is difficult to reproduce OR get any monitoring code to tell me where it's locked up at.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:46 am

grimepoch wrote:Heh, which is funny, because I am the opposite. I think working with MIDI in Logic is absoltely amazing, HOWEVER, I find recording and working with audio in Logic is archaic and very painful. The comp feature is the only thing I like in the audio area and that doesn't make up for the pain. If I am tracking all audio, no doubt, I am in DP where it works smooth and as expected

Shooshie, I too get the lock on rewind occassionally. Do you use UAD cards? I notice it is more prevelent the more complex my project gets. Also, the more UAD plugs I use. I've never been able to track it down and MOTU has been no help about it yet. I can understand, because it is difficult to reproduce OR get any monitoring code to tell me where it's locked up at.

Hey, Grim... I think several people have reported this now. It's a bug, I'm pretty sure, and it's got to be MOTU's bug, since so many people are having it. No, I don't have a UAD card or any other PCI-based effects. The only things I've used since DP 5.13 and Leopard are Wallander's WIVI instruments, and MOTU Symphonic Instrument. I've used a little MachFive2 and Akoustik Piano, but only a little. The problems have occurred when I've had WIVI and MSI open, but I don't really feel like they're to blame. I think it's a MOTU bug. When they get enough reports, they'll fix it. (keeping fingers crossed) Tell me, when it happens to you, do you get the feeling that you just rushed it too much? It usually happens to me after I've done two or three things in rapid succession -- meaning as fast as I can move my hands -- and it locks up at the rewind. When I'm into a groove on DP, my hands get to moving pretty quickly. It's muscle memory now, after 20 years of it, and I think I just get ahead of DP. There's something it wants time to do, and I've got to figure out what that "something" is. At least, that's the way it FEELS. How about you?

Seems like there's always an incremental bug. But it's getting better. "I have to admit, it's getting better... it's getting better all the time... "

Shoosh

jnunally · Post by **jnunally** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:25 am

grimepoch wrote:And thinking that Logic 8 works 100% all the time with no crashes and no troubles is definitely not true. I use both programs and can tell you they both have their share of issues. For instance, in Logic:

1) Random crashing every once in awhile
2) Comps moving around in time when reloading a project.
3) CoreAudio stopping for no reason, so no sound coming out.
4) Sequences just stopping while playing back for no reason.
5) Inconsistent CPU usage and spiking when reloading projects.
6) Undo on flatten on unpacked audio tracks can COMPLETELY destroy the placement of regions on tracks. This is REALLY BAD!

And this is just a quick list off the top of my head. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I am saying they each have their problems and workarounds. I like them both and continue to use them both on a regular basis.

All righty then. This is a list I wanted to see. I want to really get a feel for what to expect before I jump in, kind of like putting your toe in to test the water.

Anyone have anymore, DP, PT, Logic?

Thanks for the list.

Jim

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:00 am

I went to the Apple store in Glendale yesterday and actually sat with Logic for about 25-30 minutes.

Results:

Not the most intuitive interface. I really had a tough time navigating via menu items and the GUI was so cluttered I felt like I was being inundated with way too much useless fluff and not enough hard data.

IOW, lots of eye candy and very little nutrition.

Obviously, once the project is done you might be hard pressed to say which DAW it came from. But like life, it's not the destination, it's the trip that is important. And Logic is just not how I want to spend my time. I get enough eye candy in my mind's eye and when I am composing, arranging, orchestrating and designing, I want as much info as a piece of music paper in front of me. Call me old school, but I do think Logic is just too much fluff.

Funny, it reminds me of Studio Vision Pro in a lot of ways. While I loved that program THEN, I don;t want to go back to it NOW.

Digital Performer is it for me. No Logic (or illogical) envy here.

MM

stiefelmusik · Post by **stiefelmusik** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:03 am

cmm wrote:I'll chime in; for me the random volume surges have not shown up over the past few days in 5.13. I've using the same large orchestral/VI project that had the volume surges in 5.12. I almost didn't want to acknowledge in fear of the jinx....

You know, this is one of the things that disturbs me most about how MOTU handles things: they leave their users guessing as to what's been fixed and what's not. All of the other major music apps I use ALWAYS publish a bug-fix list when they issue an update. To see for yourself, check out the notes to updates/interim releases over at Ableton, Digidesign, Propellerheads, Native Instruments, etc., etc. They generally let their users know what's been fixed, and what's not. Why does MOTU have to be so mum about everything? Why do they feel they are somehow special and can get away with something practically no other major audio software vendor can get away with: namely, leaving their users completely in the dark? I just don't understand. I find it VERY, VERY frustrating... and frankly, my patience is wearing thin.

Apologies for the rant. Just can't help myself. I feel sorry for cmm, myself, and everyone else trying to second guess MOTU. With that said, things have been reasonably stable for me with 5.11 on 10.4.10. I do still have issues with volume surges, etc., but I do not like the idea of mixed bit sessions nor the new file format, so I'm avoiding upgrading for the time being -- especially since there is NO OFFICIAL STATEMENT that I know of from MOTU addressing the many issues that have come up in recent releases that would encourage me to upgrade.

Timeline · Post by **Timeline** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:24 am

stiefelmusik wrote:
cmm wrote:I'll chime in; for me the random volume surges have not shown up over the past few days in 5.13. I've using the same large orchestral/VI project that had the volume surges in 5.12. I almost didn't want to acknowledge in fear of the jinx....
You know, this is one of the things that disturbs me most about how MOTU handles things: they leave their users guessing as to what's been fixed and what's not. All of the other major music apps I use ALWAYS publish a bug-fix list when they issue an update. To see for yourself, check out the notes to updates/interim releases over at Ableton, Digidesign, Propellerheads, Native Instruments, etc., etc. They generally let their users know what's been fixed, and what's not. Why does MOTU have to be so mum about everything? Why do they feel they are somehow special and can get away with something practically no other major audio software vendor can get away with: namely, leaving their users completely in the dark? I just don't understand. I find it VERY, VERY frustrating... and frankly, my patience is wearing thin.

Apologies for the rant. Just can't help myself. I feel sorry for cmm, myself, and everyone else trying to second guess MOTU. With that said, things have been reasonably stable for me with 5.11 on 10.4.10. I do still have issues with volume surges, etc., but I do not like the idea of mixed bit sessions nor the new file format, so I'm avoiding upgrading for the time being -- especially since there is NO OFFICIAL STATEMENT that I know of from MOTU addressing the many issues that have come up in recent releases that would encourage me to upgrade.

The MOTU update statement issue has always been there and I don't think you would get an argument there. Would we want to see them change their ways, of course but we can handle it.

Fortunately, for most, me included, we have experienced a pretty good run in 5.13 on G5. I have not jumped to Intel yet because I don't want to loose HyperSonicII. I just love that software.

I would say MOTU has the system sus'd now and I have found no "gameover" issues and only a few nuisances as in anyone else's software.

In a nutshell, iIt's working great.

stiefelmusik · Post by **stiefelmusik** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:34 am

Timeline wrote: In a nutshell, iIt's working great.

Well, that's good to hear. Still, it would be nice to have a written statement like

"5.13 Release
Issue with random MIDI volume surges using virtual instruments since 5.11, fixed.
Issue with this, fixed.
Issue with that, fixed.
Loading X plugin while doing X could cause DP to quit unexpectedly, fixed.

etc., etc."

The precedent for such documentation is ALL OVER THE INTERNET. I just don't understand why MOTU feels it always needs to march to a different drummer? Let's just hope he's not a virtual drummer -- with random MIDI volume surges!

auptown · Post by **auptown** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:23 am

I have to agree with this. Even if they don't list open issues, for whatever reason, it would be great to see what they THINK they have fixed.

It would be so helpful to know that!

And I think this community would support them, they would have a few dozen beta testers confirming their work, or maybe finding cases they didn't fix.

Maybe if we PROMISE to be nice about it?

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:28 am

The freeze on rewind has been happening to me since the first version of DP5, and in all my experimentation on it, I can tell you this:

1) For projects with few plugins or none it never happens
2) Saving the design and immediately rewinding when done saving usually guarantees a lock up for me.
3) The more tracks and plugins, the more often the freezes occur.
4) DP can be sitting idle and I can hit rewind and it will lock.

Since it does not crash, I cannot figure out where it is getting hung up. I tried using the developer tools to get deeper into the problem, however, they will not report on hangs unless they eventually come back. This problem NEVER comes back.

5) I do not think it is a UAD problem because I duplicated a song ENTIRELY in logic and no kind of rewind lock ever. I asked UAD about it as well and they said it wasn't something they were aware of and that they suspected DP as DP does not fully follow the AU spec. I asked MOTU and didn't get anything from them about it.

6) I tried to create a sample project that exhibited the problems. No number of MOTU plugins could I make demonstrate the issue. Therefore, I feel it has something to do with AUs.