Active direct box and 828mkll: Will it make a difference?

[wvandyck]

For direct input recording of clean electric guitar????

The gain control on the 828mkll gives me plenty of signal strength.
But will there be any significant sonic enhancement going through a direct box?

Any Amplitude or similar users who find a difference between a DI box and the 828 gain?

Or maybe the real question is: Is it worth spending the money on a Radial or similar for direct input recording to be processed with software afterwards.

Yep! I know that a miked amp is the ultimate source of tone. But I'm a city dweller with my monitor system set for 85dB spl at the sweet-spot. That's as loud as I get.

[jmoore]

I have not done any a/b comparisons between my Countryman DI and the built-in DI on my 828mkii, but I think you will probably only notice a slight improvement if you step up to a nicer DI like the Radial or Countryman. Unfortunately you are still going to be dealing with the mediocre (at best) preamps on the 828. They aren't doing your tone any favors. That being said, I would still plan on investing in a nice DI if this is how you plan to track most of your guitars. Then start saving your money for a nicer preamp. That combination (quality DI and quality pre) should really help shape your tone.

[chrispick]

I think something like this is a better DI solution for guitar-to-virtual-amp recording:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Brick/

It'll give you gain and color without hitting an amp cabinet.

[wvandyck]

Thanks folks.

I'm not unhappy with the sound of the 828 but I have no point of comparison to make a ...sound judgement.

A slight difference wouldn't justify the expense. That's what I wanted to verify.

A quality DI and preamp certainly makes sense.
I'll check into the Brick. Looks cool.

Cheers.

[BradLyons]

I agree with Chris that an Instrument Pre/DI is going to be a better route for you to go. Tube and some solid state boxes add some nice coloration that take the edginess off the sound of the strings, giving them more definition and provides a more musical tone.

[dosuna11]

I use a tube pre-amp into a BBE 882i and then the 828. Very warm.

[gearboy]

Have you had Black Lion mod the analog path of your 828mk2? If you have this done, the preamps/DIs sound great and it'll be better money spent than spending $100-$400 on a new active DI or preamp that still has to go though the stock 828mk2's clouded analog path.

After that's taken care of, you will have two very nice DIs on the front of the 828mk2 that will cost a little bit more than two Countrymans or about the same price as a GT Brick, however you also get an improved headphone amp, two nice mic preamps (which sound really great and are super clean!), plus tons of improved i/o. To me this makes the most sense. I had it done and it drastically improved my recordings.

After that, I hear a lot of folks who totally love the Avalon U5 DI for bass and other things. And most of these folks hate everything else that Avalon makes. I don't have one but I may pick one up in 2008. Right now I use my modded 828mk2 for clean, my modded Presonus MP20, or my 1970s Yamaha PM1000 channel (racked) for transformer-yummy bass stuff. However, at some point I would also like to pick up either a Radial or a Countryman in order to get into my Sytek or my EH 12AY7 preamp (which is a real tube design and not a starved plate tube design).

Jeff

[wvandyck]

Hey thanks for piping up.
I've been looking into the BL mods and it occurred to me that this might be a more $ensible solution for multiple reasons. You just validated that conclusion.

On rare occasions I use the SP/DIF connection on my 828 for DAT transfers. (Sony PCM-R300). Will the Word Clock not functioning after the mod mess with this connection???

I haven't ever used the Word Clock connectors so I wouldn't miss anything unless there is some internal connection with the SP/DIF..

Otherwise I think I'm ready to move on this.
The audio clips were pretty interesting. And I'm not talking about the Singer The mod difference was very obvious with the acoustic and bass guitar.

Hey if this works, maybe I'll get inspired to use my Octava mikes with my Alvarez Yairi.

Cheers.

[mhschmieder]

It will make a HUGE difference. Ideally you want to pass through the 828 as transparently as possible, with no gain. A good preamp/DI hybrid is the way to go, but the Black Lion mods will still help with A/D quality due to jitter.

I use the Avalon U5, and have done so with every audio interface I have owned the past few years. When I compare vs. plugging in directly, it is night and day. Though I have not yet taken the time to try this with my newish RME Fireface 800 and its guitar amp emulation mode on channel 1.

The U5 is great for bass, keyboards, electric guitar and acoustic guitar, but is especially ideal for bass guitar and acoustic guitar due to its transparency and air. A mild tube boost stage is a bit more successful on electric guitar and also certain keyboard sounds. For that I use a Summit Audio TLA-50.

Both the U5 and TLA-50 range in price anywhere from $500 to $650, depending on your negotiating skills and periodic sales. That is only slightly more than one of the better breakout boxes like the Countryman, and has the added benefit of better routing options, clean signal path, etc.

[chrispick]

I can't vouch personally, but I'm hearing a lot of great things about this:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/REDDI/

I can say this: I have two A-Designs items, a Pacifica and an ATTY, and both are excellent devices.

[mhschmieder]

Can't go wrong with ANY of those, or the REDDI which I haven't used but have received good feedback from pros.

In the end, you may find you want more than one. The preamp in my opinion is the best place in the signal path to play around, and keep the rest 100% transparent.

I also have close-to-100% transparent preamps but the important thing is to know what you're dealing with.

The initial gain stage is the best place to tweak the sound and not degrade the signal quality. Having an awareness of what's going on at each gain stage will also help you to make better decisions on setting up your project and your workflow as well as wiring, etc.

[wvandyck]

More great choices.
I did notice the REDDI when checking into the Brick.

I guess I always look past Avalon due to the great quality$$$ and my not-so sumptuous budget. The U5 is another solid contender.

At this point I'll need to get the pencil and start 'cipherin' pro and con of all options including the BL mod. A main advantage of the BL mod seems to be improved sonic performance at the point of entry.

In the meantime I have the PAiA TubeHead that took me three working days to construct from a kit.
http://www.paia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9305HSR
http://reviews.harmony-central.com/revi ... eHead/10/1
It's currently hooked up into the inserts of the 828mkll. I'm sure it's no match for the Brick, REDDI and similar, but the tube warmth is there.

[gearboy]

Will the Word Clock not functioning after the mod mess with this connection???

I haven't ever used the Word Clock connectors so I wouldn't miss anything unless there is some internal connection with the SP/DIF..

I've never heard of or had a problem using the word clock on my modded 828mk2. As a matter of fact, Black Lion makes the Micro Clock, which supposedly rivels the Big Ben for 1/3 of the price, to go with the MOTU/Digi/M-Audio mods. And especially for the MOTU mods as they had some problems with the internal MOTU clock mod regarding internal space. They also had to drill a switch into the front of the MOTU units (mine has this) as a result so they discontinued the internal clock mod and have decided to offer their clock as a stand-alone device. Since the Micro Clock is BNC/Word Clock only and designed to go with the MOTU mods I see no issues. Folks are plenty happy with the MOTU analog-only mod and then using the Micro Clock as a master clock. And they are releasing A/D and D/A converters that will run off of SPDIF and AES/EBU so you're covered there as well.

Not sure where you read the problem with the Word Clock post mod, but I can assure you that the analog modifications that they do have nothing to do with the digital i/o or the clocking.

Jeff

[wvandyck]

From SOS. I mixed things up a bit.
"For example, the clock modification leaves your MOTU interface unable to sync to external equipment via AES, SPDIF or ADAT (although Word Clock should still work fine), and totally incompatible with operating systems other than recent versions of OS X." 12-06 Performer Notes.

[mhschmieder]

Not to take away from the praiseworthy Black Lion mods, but you might want to also consider watching the web for after-show specials on RME Firefaces. That's how I got mine for over $300 less than the advertised web price. That put the differential (after selling the 828 mk II) within range of the BL mods, so I felt it was a better way to go.

The caveat is that it doesn't play quite as well with DP in that a few monitoring features are disabled, but I have learned to work around these limitations and am instead enjoying the far better headphone amp, more flexible cue-mix routing, better monitoring and metering, etc.

If memory serves, the BL mods affect the D/A more than the A/D, but this of course affects quality as what you hear affects your perception of whether what's going in is clean or not. It has to do with sharing the same clock for both A/D and D/A, amongst other things.