Buffer settings lower than 64?

[Hayman]

Hi,

I can't set my buffer lower than 64 (Dual G4 867 + Motu 896). The latency when I monitor guitar plugins (recording) is too long. Why can't I set the buffer lower?

Richard

[Frodo]

DP doesn't support lower buffers than 64 (even though other DAWs do).

If monitoring is your concern, you might want to put CueMix to work.

[Dwetmaster]

If he haqs an 896 (and not an 896HD) then cuemix is not an option.

[Frodo]

If he haqs an 896 (and not an 896HD) then cuemix is not an option.

Ah, that's right.

So, this is all the more reason why improving latency is an urgent issue.

[Mr_Clifford]

Holy crap, I'm surprised you're able to run a Dual G4 at 64. I generally can't get mine lower than 512 (or 256 at a pinch) without problems.

I don't think the designers of the current DP imagined that people would be trying to record guitars through plug-ins in real time.

[Kubi]

Latency induced by a 64 buffer is almost inaudible. At 44.1kHz, that's 1.5 ms, the time it takes for sound to reach your ear from a speaker about 1.5 feet away. So if you play a guitar and your amp is three feet away, you already have a longer 'latency' than the one induced by your 64 buffer. Or if you move your head away from your monitors by 1.5 feet, you've just added a 64 buffer latency. In other words, I don't think that's your problem here.

My guess: What you're hearing is the latency induced by your guitar plugs, and that has nothing to do with buffer settings. And there is no remedy in the world for that in any DAW. You'd have to either find zero-latency plug-ins, though I don't know if there are guitar plug-ins (i.e. amp simulations) with no latency. Some EQs and compressors (i.e. Sonalksis) are zero latency, though I've never tested how 'zero' a zero latency plug is with a live signal... I'd assume they are.

[Hayman]

Thanks,

With my setup, a buffer setting of 64 is very audible. Could be, as you say, that Nigel is what's creating the latency. I've never recorded listening through the software before and was just testing it becase I was thinking about getting another guitar plugin. If it's the same problem with other plugins, I'm not buying anything new right now. ....or maybe a whole new system will do the trick?

Thanks again

Richard

[kassonica]

I haven't used Nigel but make sure there isn't a buffer setting inside the plugin somewhere.

Theres one in altiverb so there could be a extra buffer in there.

[Spikey Horse]

Have you tried mixing in a bit of the direct DI signal? Just enough to get the attack..... you can always take it out when adjusting the plug's tone and have it mixed in just for tracking.

Just as idea...

[Frodo]

Thanks,

With my setup, a buffer setting of 64 is very audible. Could be, as you say, that Nigel is what's creating the latency. I've never recorded listening through the software before and was just testing it becase I was thinking about getting another guitar plugin. If it's the same problem with other plugins, I'm not buying anything new right now. ....or maybe a whole new system will do the trick?

Thanks again

Richard

Richard:

The latency discussion has come up before. It *is* there and is a reality. Different people have different takes on it-- I won't get into the details of the multi-faceted contoversy, but here's one thread that sort of sheds some light on the issue and its associated counterpoints:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18495

I only wanted to mention this because DP's 64 buffers are a reality-- but for some it's a non-issue. For others it's a real nuisance, and it varies from person to person where the manner in which DP is used from person to person likewise varies.

Besides DP's buffers, the other things to look at to perhaps improve latency are:

1. Work Quanta (Setup Menu> Configure Audio System> Configure Studio Settings). This regulates the intervals at which MAS does its calculations. Raising this can free up some resources for real time processing at the expense of some GUI performance if raised too high.

2. Max Work Percent (Setup Menu> Configure Audio System> Configure Studio Settings). This regulates the percentage of CPU that MAS uses for things like pre-rendering audio from disk before playback.

3. Pre-fill Audio Buffers (Setup Menu> Configure Audio System> Configure Studio Settings). This regulates the delay time in ms for DP to begin looking ahead to pre-fill the buffers

4. Work Priority (Setup Menu> Configure Audio System> Configure Hardware Driver). If you are running VIs or effects, lowering the work priority can actually help free up resources otherwise allocated to DP. If your VI streams samples from disc, use its preference settings to raise whatever settings that regulate disc usage to high priority (or whatever term is used for that particular VI).

Some combination of adjustments with these settings may allow for some improvement with how DP runs at a 64 buffer setting, but the more data there is at play, the harder DP and your hardware must work to funnel that data to the buffers and to deliver it in a timely fashion. Where audio does not make it on time-- where it cannot be reconciled by the governing clock source-- samples are dropped, resulting in pops and clicks.

Where buffers are raised, so increases latency, and we've come full circle.

It has been an issue for some time, but it hasn't been a "problem issue" for everyone. For those for whom it is a problem, the best that can be done is to try to minimize its effects.

[Kubi]

Frodo, the point here is that between DP's 64 buffer and an effect plug-in, it's the plug-in that's causing the lion's share of the delay.

Hayman, try recording into DP without any plug-ins, just a dry guitar signal. The delay you hear is the 64 buffer induced by DP.

Now instantiate Nigel - I'm willing to bet the delay will go from barely a nuisance to quite unusable.

My point is, it makes absolutely no sense to worry about a 64 buffer when you're running a plug-in that induces a delay of several hundred or even thousand samples. If you use the same plug with Logic's 32 buffer you'll still get a delay that you can't live with - it's the plugin that causes it.

For live recording through effects, there is simply no alternative in current music technology to using hardware processors, guitar pedals etc., no matter what your buffer setting or which DAW. Unless of course you use a zero-latency plug-in. But I'm not sure there are zero-latency guitar processor plug-ins.

[magicd]

For live recording through effects, there is simply no alternative in current music technology to using hardware processors, guitar pedals etc., no matter what your buffer setting or which DAW. Unless of course you use a zero-latency plug-in. But I'm not sure there are zero-latency guitar processor plug-ins.

There is no such thing as zero latency with digital audio. It takes time to convert analog to digital and digital to analog. The computer does not process samples one at a time, it processes them in batches.

Even devices like a POD or Lexicon have latency delay.

Nigel runs on a hardware DSP card right? So now you have the delay going in and out of the computer, any delay added by the actual processing inside the plug-in, and the delay getting the signal in and out of the DSP hardware.

I've measured around 6ms from analog in to analog out through DP and the computer. That is roughly the same as standing six feet away from your amp. I've never heard a guitar player complain about delay when they were standing six feet from their amp.

And yes, plug-ins can introduce additional processing delay. That depends on how the plug-in is written.
Not all plug-ins add additional delay. This is because they get their processing done within the time alloted by the size of the sample packets going through the DAW. A plug-in that does very heavy processing may take more than one buffer cycle to procees the incoming sample packets.

To check if this is what's happening, take Nigel out of the signal path (Don't just bypass the effect. Take it out of the effects chain entirely) and check patch through with no effects. Now try a simple plug-in like the MOTU EQ. That will tell you if the extra delay is caused by Nigel or not.

Magic Dave

[Kubi]

I've measured around 6ms from analog in to analog out through DP and the computer.
Magic Dave

You're of course right, I didn't add the delay caused by AD/DA process, so the overall latency is bound to be longer than the delay induced by the buffer alone. But again, it becomes pretty irrelevant whether you set that buffer to 64 or 32.