Britney Spears' production has got me wondering...

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FMiguelez
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Britney Spears' production has got me wondering...

Post by FMiguelez »

.

Hi all.

I had heard the album a few times, but a few moments ago I tried analizing it. I poped it into DP and stuck the PAZ analizer to see what's going on.

What got my immediate attention was that the bass frequencies were SO loud, but yet it sounds very clear. I changed settings between Peak levels, RMS levels, at 40, 20 and 10 Hz detail, etc. The graph was jumping around so much in those low areas where I always avoid going.
I kind of have a reference to monitor my bass levels, and I know how far I can push my bass before it starts sounding like crap and muddy. Of course I let my ears always be my guide, but since my room is not amazingly accurate, and my speakers SUCK (Alesis M1 powered), I need to not only hear, but SEE the frequencies you don't hear here.

My questions are:

1.- How come that, despite the graph is showing so much bass energy, it still doesn't sound muddy, and the bass is clear and powerful??? They have so much stuff going on in the 30-30 Hz region, yet it sounds great.
If I dare going anywhere near those bass levels, my stuff sounds like CRAP...

2.- They limited the crap out of it, but this style calls for this, I suppose. What is amazing to me is that almost ONLY the kick takes up all the headroom, yet when all the instruments and her voice appear, they somehow fit in what's little left. How do they do this?? How can they manage to make everything audible? It's like every instrument is confined to it's own frequency range...

Please bear with me. I am mostly a composer, and my engineering chops are still very green. I guess I would like to hear comments, observations, etc., on how they achieve this sound, where no matter how much stuff is going on, you can still hear everything.

Another thing I noticed, how much time did this people spend programming and producing this album?? I mean, they have SO many effects, almost nothing sounds "pure".

If you have any comments or observations, please share them with me.
Remember I was trained by "classical" music, and that's mostly what I do, so these mixing/engineering techniques are a bit elusive to me.

Thanks!! :)
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Post by dtobocman »

I wouldn't go anywhere near a Britney Spears CD. That crap will rot your brain and turn your ears to feces.
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Post by FMiguelez »

.

:roll:

Thanks, but that's not what I asked. I'm not asking if you like it or not. All I want to know is about the engineering/production techniques.

Can we discuss that, without going into the "I hate her", whatever, territory?
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Post by TOD »

aaaah,

This is my neck of the woods. 8)

Electro!

I'm by far no expert. But I've gotten pretty good at this sound. I think this production is pretty heavy on sidechaining, (pumping the bass off the Kick). This allows bigger bass and kick because they are working off instead of on each other. We typically use two bass sounds too. one above the kick frequency and one below.

Also a lot of compression, (L3)....and selective EQ.
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Post by Guitar Gaz »

Just ask yourself is this going to be a classic that people listen to in years to come ? I doubt it - but the classic stuff people still listen to (and of course copy and recycle) - did it need such aural mangling? Or was it about performance first?

I know what I think and others will differ. Its like listening to the new Alter Bridge album - it has all the ingredients and the sounds and production and the playing technique. But it sounds cliched and without soul. Sorry. And then I listen to Spunk Rock by Man from about 1969 - live with mistakes and sound okayish. And it sounds brilliant. And exciting. Sorry - too much red wine tonight and a chip on my shoulder about modern production techniques......
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Post by FMiguelez »

.

Hey, Guitar Gaz:

Could you please cite what you call a "classic, something that people will listen to in years to come"?? IN THIS SAME STYLE. Maybe I'd like to check it out :)

I'd be interested in listening to more of this music, just to compare. Since I don't listen to this kind of music very often, I'm kind of ignorant regarding this, so any suggestions as to a few songs/artists in this SAME style will be most appreciated.

If you were in Tower right now, and were looking for this style/sound, what would YOU get???

Thanks.
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Post by chrispick »

TOD wrote:I think this production is pretty heavy on sidechaining, (pumping the bass off the Kick). This allows bigger bass and kick because they are working off instead of on each other. We typically use two bass sounds too. one above the kick frequency and one below.
Yes to all of this.

Usually, also, the bass is notched to let some of kick poke through.

Careful pass filtering helps a lot.

I have a feeling multi-band compression plays a role too.
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Re: Britney Spears' production has got me wondering...

Post by Frodo »

FMiguelez wrote:.
My questions are:

1.- How come that, despite the graph is showing so much bass energy, it still doesn't sound muddy, and the bass is clear and powerful??? They have so much stuff going on in the 30-30 Hz region, yet it sounds great.
If I dare going anywhere near those bass levels, my stuff sounds like CRAP...
Many things contribute to a technically well done mix and mastering job.

But mastering is not the total answer. Starting with the right sounds, the right mics, etc., to begin with will be paramount. Sometimes these things can't be determined until a desired result has been missed later on. At that point, you must be willing to go back and to swap out one kick or snare for another, or to even re-record a vocal with a different mic. Start with the right sounds!!

First of all, some things are indeed fine-tuned in mastering, so don't be "too" hard on yourself when making comparisons.

Second, there could be any number of tools at play. Among these tools are the Multi-Band EQs Multi-Band Comps, and notch filter EQs which are used relentlessly to sculpt every micro element of these mixes into shape. Understanding exactly what was done and how it was done will lead to an understanding of what needs to be done and what tools it will take to accomplish the desired results.

Continue doing comparison listening and make a *detailed* list of what you notice that is desirable and undesirable about your mix and your reference CD track. This alone is great ear training, and that's where the sun rises and sets with everything.
FMiguelez wrote:.
2.- They limited the crap out of it, but this style calls for this, I suppose. What is amazing to me is that almost ONLY the kick takes up all the headroom, yet when all the instruments and her voice appear, they somehow fit in what's little left. How do they do this?? How can they manage to make everything audible? It's like every instrument is confined to it's own frequency range...
Again, the tools used are as important as the specific purposes for which they are used.

While collaborating with an engineer on a project, I tracked tons of things at his studio and then brought the project home to add to the arrangements. These included guitar tracks which were flown out in stereo. In some cases, the stereo guitar tracks worked very well and were kept. In other cases, it worked out better when the stereo tracks were folded into mono, reshaped with EQ, and then slotted into specific locations in the mix to keep it from interfering with other instruments and vocals which were panned across the listening spectrum.

A Strat guitar can interfere with a cymbal. A hi-hat can interfere with hard consonants used by a vocalist A bass part for pop mixes adds a lot of boom to a mix and can sound muddy-- but often the kick that compliments it can interfere with it as well. The kick and bass work together, so adding the right amount of "point" to the kick drum by notching up frequencies in the 400-500 hz range can help this. It's much more complicated than that, but when most people think of a kick drum they don't even consider what's going in the upper mids or how it might help or hurt their mix.

Another tool that comes in handy is some sort of spectrum or frequency analyzer. If it's possible to isolate just one guitar chord or one bass note or to isolate as many individual elements in a reference track, you can get some visual sense of what's going on with that particular instrument in terms of its dB level and frequency.

It's been said before, but it's also important to make sure that your mixing environment is working in your favor. If mixes sound top-heavy could be that your room is emphasizing lower frequencies (and you crank the high end to compensate for it). Same is true in the other direction-- a dull mix can be the result of overcompensating for a room that emphasizes the high end more than it should).

Types of monitors, of course, come into play as well.

The important thing is to find a CD track that offers you a lot of isolation with certain instruments so that at least for the sake of an excercise you can see how closely you can manually match EQs and other settings; to mix and match settings, and to compare these sonic behaviors to other instruments in the mix.

Start with one instrument at a time (usually the kick or bass to build a foundation) and don't be in a big hurry to add everything else in too soon. It can take a full day to get a good drum mix alone-- a couple of hours or more to get the snare drum right. The good news is that the more you do it, the more often you'll nail it. The more often you nail it, the less time it will take to get there.

Watch out for the reverb trap! The mix should sound well balanced without any reverb at all, and not every effect needs to be gratuitiously in stereo.

And yes-- it is true: there are many questionable artists out there whose CDs thrive on some of THE VERY BEST engineering in the business.
Last edited by Frodo on Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by FMiguelez »

chrispick wrote:
TOD wrote:I think this production is pretty heavy on sidechaining, (pumping the bass off the Kick). This allows bigger bass and kick because they are working off instead of on each other. We typically use two bass sounds too. one above the kick frequency and one below.
Yes to all of this.

Usually, also, the bass is notched to let some of kick poke through.

Careful pass filtering helps a lot.

I have a feeling multi-band compression plays a role too.

Do you mean like ducking???

I've heard it again. What impresses me most, and i'm putting myself in the spot for writing this, is the ammount of production that went into this album. Listening closely reveal tons of details, little things, big things, so many effects, so many processes.

Whoever produced/arranged this is a master of synthesis and processing and programming. I mean, I could never come up with something like this, and even if I did, I'd probably mess it up at the mixing stage. I can only begin to imagine the ammount of work and production time this album entailed...

Sorry, I like it :oops: :? :D
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Post by FMiguelez »

.

Frodo:

Thanks so much for your detailed response. Thank you also for your advice and sharing all that.

Eventhough my room leaves a lot to be desired in term of acoustic "correctness", I've become used to it and know it very well. That said, my next hardware purchase will be a decent set of speakers monitors. There's not too much more i can do about the room, though.

Anyway, it's obvious that music synthesis/processing is just another branch of music where, as is always the case, needs lots of studying, practicing, experimenting, etc. to obtain expertise.

Any albums in this style that you could to recommend?? I like harsh and heavily processed ones, like this.

Anyway, time to give my ears a rest, and listen to something more errr.... let's live it at that.
Wow. I don't know why, but my ears seem a bit "tired". I was listening at no more that 85 dBs... :?

Time for Respighi. I'm going to the open rehearsal this saturday, and the day after is the performance (Pines of Rome) Yummy :P
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Post by chrispick »

FMiguelez wrote:Do you mean like ducking???
Yeah, side chaining is ducking essentially.

I think most of the effect is reached via arrangement and EQ though. These kind of tracks simply make a lot of room for heavy bass.
I've heard it again. What impresses me most, and i'm putting myself in the spot for writing this, is the ammount of production that went into this album. Listening closely reveal tons of details, little things, big things, so many effects, so many processes.

Whoever produced/arranged this is a master of synthesis and processing and programming. I mean, I could never come up with something like this, and even if I did, I'd probably mess it up at the mixing stage. I can only begin to imagine the ammount of work and production time this album entailed...
This kind of production and arrangement often goes unappreciated by old schoolers. Putting aside whether or not one likes the songs or production, it's fair to recognize the abilities required to accomplish it. It's a learned skill, for sure. Whether or not it's the boon or bane of pop music development is a different argument.
Last edited by chrispick on Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by chrispick »

FMiguelez wrote:Anyway, time to give my ears a rest, and listen to something more errr.... let's live it at that.
Wow. I don't know why, but my ears seem a bit "tired". I was listening at no more that 85 dBs...
Well, the RMS levels on most of these kinds of tracks is really high, and there's usually a good amount of clipping at the peaks levels. It makes the tracks more immediately attractive -- louder is often perceived as sounding better-- but more quickly fatiguing because there is a harshness and persistent (to put it euphemistically) dB level.

For me, the harsh highs and pounding lows are hard to take in large doses.
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Post by aizo »

i is not very smart. but i do know. you start out with good quality samples in electro musica you is gonna end up wit good sounding stuff. wifout beating yo hed against the mising bowd. like i said...i is not very smart...but it does be electronic music. keyboards, synths, and drum machines dont need too much doctorins.

uh yeah, i jsut went to itunes. and that album isnt really full of complex traks and stuff. im sure there are more doctorins to them there vocals then there is actual music tracks. bass, bd, sd, clap, cymbal, hihat,
random dance sounding noise, melody(laugh), and more random dance noises. uh yeah, there is not really a lot goins on. so its easy to fis em up.
yeah dats it
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Post by tommymandel »

Thanks TOD, chrispick and Frodo for some great tips, and FM for bringing this all up. It's given me a lot to try out next time Britney comes over. :lol: But seriously, some great information.
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Post by Guitar Gaz »

Could you please cite what you call a "classic, something that people will listen to in years to come"?? IN THIS SAME STYLE. Maybe I'd like to check it out

How about Sex Machine by James Brown ? Don't know if its the same style but its a classic - its about performance. Don't know if there was any side-chaining going on there - doubt it to be honest. Its simple but it sounds right.
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