Workflow DP & Logic Pro 8

[grimepoch]

Well I am a user of both as well too. As I got a copy through a friend at the apple store for 50% off (That's the employee cost) How could I pass that up!

I've been using both for I guess a month now. I'm actually writing in Logic at the moment and haven't used DP as much only because I am not at the mastering stage of the songs I am working on.

For me, the things I can point out immediately that I like better in DP is the ease at which audio is edited in the TO. It's a lot more work to trim and adjust and cut apart different pieces of audio to me than it was in DP. In addition, Logic is VERY limited in it's simplistic MIDI recording setup. Trying to record from 2 different MIDI devices at the same time is both counter-intuitive and frustrating. Their whole environment, while extremely powerful, I feel *misses* the simplicity in efficiency that DP has. The role the focus of a track plays in the arrange window just slows me down a bit. In addition, the Solo functionality doesn't work as nicely to me.

Why do I even use Logic? MIDI timing is extremely accurate for me with external synths and I like regions better than what we have in DP. The whole Alias/Clone concept and coloring of the regions has made my MIDI content creation MUCH more intuitive for ME. In addition, the included soft synths are really A LOT better as a whole. Sculpture is amazing. Ultrabeat is amazing (love the pattern editor). Also, Automation editing is AWESOME when you can separate each automation curve out on a different line.

Why do I even use DP? For mixing/mastering it just feels better. The fact you can double click on a parameter to set it to 1, SO nice. The MasterWorks EQ is still a better EQ than the channel EQ in Logic. Audio editing is just superior. Automation CURVES are better. The options you have in DP are so much more powerful. While not as easy to look at as in L8, I usually only have fine tuning at the end anyways. Once MOTU addresses an issue I am having with DP and buses (which they are working on) then I will get back to my mixing/mastering.

And an interesting thought to ponder. I love how DP handles audio, and how certain MIDI functions are easier in DP. The thing is, I cannot imagine those being in Logic because Logic's strengths are in the fact it is different along those SAME exact lines. In other words, there are certain features that are mutually exclusive to each that would be VERY difficult to implement across both concepts without SERIOUS hacks and very complicated coding. A good example would be MIDI editing in DP. If you wanted colored region support in DP, then you'd have to have a concept of regions that were probably NOT automatic. Then, when you were copying and pasting in the sequence window, handling new regions and their creation/destruction would REALLY get complicated in DP. The whole beauty for some people (not me) is that it is one continuous MIDI track that is VERY EASY to manipulate or see in time. I know people who absolutely love this fact and do not like Logic because of the way it handles MIDI.

This is why I like the fact I know different DAWs based on DIFFERENT concepts of use. It allows you to select the right tool for the job on what YOU need or prefer. And, not being locked into one DAW means if one of them has an issue you cannot work around, your work around is to do that particular task/project in a different DAW and continue working.

[Frodo]

For me, the things I can point out immediately that I like better in DP is the ease at which audio is edited in the TO.

In the TO? Interesting. Curious-- did you mean SE perhaps?

[grimepoch]

Both actually.

Want to just clip off a measure of audio without messing with crossfades yet?

In DP, select the amount you want to remove in the TO, hit delete key. Doesn't get any easier than that!

But yes, in the SE, it is also VERY easy to edit. L8 is not horrible, it's just I find the steps to do certain things are much fewer on the whole for DP for audio editing.

[wvandyck]

I like to render my VI voices as audio for various reasons. Even with Model 12, I set up a Bundles preset to give me the option to record the separate outputs as audio. DP's features are more advanced to accomplish this.

What I've learned about the way Logic handles multi-timbral and multi-output VIs (with some tutoring, thank you) is that aux channels can be very conveniently created from the Instrument channel strip. Once output assignments are made in MSI Expert Mode, each part (up to 16) will play through it's own aux. It works very well. Various processors can be added to the aux inserts, with all of it ending up in the "Bounce" when done.

This arrangement is exactly like the Model 12... model of routing separate outputs.

But, I prefer to have the option to record to audio. So here's the plan: 1. Open a stereo version of say, MSI in Logic. Add new track with next MIDI channel as many times as needed. 2. Record each separate MIDI track. 3. Save the MSI "Multi" 4. Save the L8 file as SMF. 4. Import into DP. 5. Load MSI Multi. 6. Assign the MSI parts to separate output busses, 7. Route busses to audio tracks. Done!

In Logic, I had to assign separate output busses in each of the separate aux channels. This created yet more aux channels which I deleted. I was then able to route the outputs to audio inputs. I may be missing something here, but I have spent enough time with the manual to think not.

[zaster]

Beat mapping in L8 was more intuitive than I thought it would be.

I thought I liked Logic's Beat Mapping more than DP's Adjust beats until I realized that the minute I started changing tempo with my Piano MIDI track locked to SMPTE, the sustain pedal data was wiped off the track. Tried it several times to be sure my eyes were not decieving me. So I had to take the Piano track to DP and do the Adjust Beats there. Has anyone else run into this? I posted on the gripes section and one of these days I'll try over on the Logic forum to see what those folks have to say for themselves!
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23991

[Frodo]

Beat mapping in L8 was more intuitive than I thought it would be.

I thought I liked Logic's Beat Mapping more than DP's Adjust beats until I realized that the minute I started changing tempo with my Piano MIDI track locked to SMPTE, the sustain pedal data was wiped off the track. Tried it several times to be sure my eyes were not decieving me. So I had to take the Piano track to DP and do the Adjust Beats there. Has anyone else run into this? I posted on the gripes section and one of these days I'll try over on the Logic forum to see what those folks have to say for themselves!
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23991

Yeah-- I recall your mention of this strangeness. I've always been a little skiddish about beat mapping mid-project, to be honest-- even in DP. Things seem to work best when these things can be done at the start of the project.

Often I'll get a track to which orchestration has to be set. Sometimes the track itself needs editing-- so, as long as I can get my clients to commit sooner than later, the better things work.

I'm treading on thin ice, I know, because just my luck something will come up tomorrow on a nearly finished project that will require a whole different approach.

Ah, whaddaya gunna du?

At least we have options, though.

[zaster]

I've always been a little skiddish about beat mapping mid-project, to be honest-- even in DP. Things seem to work best when these things can be done at the start of the project.

Just to clarify though- this wasn't mid-project. Workflow was like this: I play piano and sing (1 MIDI track for the piano and 1 audio track for the voice). Then I want to make a tempo track so that my piano score displays properly and so if I add any drums etc, they "know" where the measures/beats are. So I was doing it at the begining of the project, right after the first tracks were laid down. Assuming you wouldn't ever have a reason to make a tempo map before any tracks had been laid down, I think I have the problem narrowed down to where it's a pretty serious drawback: as in "occurs 100% of the time". To have to go back after making a tempo map and draw in all the sustain pedal data every single time you make a tempo adjustment is simply unacceptable. I didn't try a VI with some other controller data, but my guess would be it would erase that too. Maybe I'm mistaken. No problems whatsoever doing the same thing in DP. I simply have to find out how the Logic users can put up with this...

[Frodo]

hmm-- I wonder if there's not some button hidden somewhere in L8 like some sort of filter...

[kmoreau893]

Hi All

I think this may be my first post to this forum. I have been using Digital Performer for years, currently on 5.12. After fighting with the stability (crashing so much I can't get anything done) and when it isn't crashing all the waiting drives me nuts. (and I have a pretty good system, Quad G5). I decided to go for Logic Studio. The price had been a barrier, but with the recent price I decided to try it.

So now I just got into Logic, but already I can see it may work for me. However, I'm just trying to export a DP Project to L8. The project is many sequences, MIDI, driving VIs, such as MSI, Ethno, MachFive, Atmosphere, and some recorded audio. What I really want is to export (using AAF I presume) and open it up with L8 and for all my MIDI tracks to be there, with the same names, tempo maps, and audio tracks. I'd also like the patches for my VIs selected.

Now I've tried the AAF route, and that doesn't seem to do MIDI, I've tried MIDI, and I do get MIDI tracks in L8, but then I have to assign them to the VIs manually. I've even tried saving my VI's settings in DP, but they don't seem to want to be opened by the same VI's open setting in L8 (grayed out). So before doing a lot of manual work to do these importing, I'd like to know if there is a shortcut.

This forum is great. If DP was faster and more stable I wouldn't even think about L8, I can see it's a lot less feature-rich than DP, but for the way I want to use it, it just is too fragile.

Thanks for any advice.

-Keith

[waterstrum]

Keith...
The stability problems you are having with DP are not normal.
On your system, DP should be very stable and amazing.
I suspect many culprits, but you have to do some detective work.

DP is very stable for me on a far less powerful platform.

I recently got the Logic stuff and I'm enjoying it.
All of the Apple loops and VIs and fluff are very fun.
For audio editing, though, I'm thinking Logic is a few years behind DP.
Also for MIDI stuff, Logic seems a bit primitive.

Logic has cool plugs and VIs and is very Apple connected.
In a few years they may catch up with DP.

I share your desire to be able to import sessions from DP to Logic and vice versa.

Is there a dependable way to do this?

[jlaudon]

I couldn't find a way to make AAF export in DP work with MIDI/VIs in Logic either. However, that said, I recently did a dance song in L8, which was great for the apple loops/library and the amount of VIs I could load up in it, but it's true that the audio/MIDI editing seems quite primitive to what I 'm used to in DP (I even wanted to do some reverse audio stuff in L8, and had to do it destructively, and a lot more steps than when I do it in DP). Simple things like MIDI tick resolution can't be changed either (it's fixed at 3480 or something like that), so when you want to nudge something in the audio or MIDI, you have a lot less choices one tick, one sample, one frame rate, etc.), which ends up taking a lot more keystrokes as well.

I use a Quad G5, and it is very stable with DP - very rarely crashes, and only when it's loaded up to the max with VIs, and I try to change the buffer setting or something like that (if I know this might happen, I save/close the project, then change the buffer setting, and open it up again). I also have a UAD card, a PCIe Firewire card, KORE, and lots of 3rd party plugs, and it all works great.

Keith, like waterstrum said, there's something not normal with your system, that DP would be so unstable. Can you give us more details about all that you are using?

[kmoreau893]

I have a Quad G5 with 4 GB RAM, am using Atmosphere, Ethno, MSI, Machfive1 and Machfive 2.

Actually I got it to be pretty stable with just using one 'chunk'. I always noticed when I started using multiple chunks, songs, etc it seemed more delicate. I have a lot of stuff running as well, cause I need to work on other things at the same time, but I noticed the instability when even using a clean system and hard drive with the Chunks window.

I also just started trying to use Device Groups, and hit another crashing bug which seems to be well known (using more than 1 device group). It just seems like when I try to do something innovative and think I have a good workflow down, I need to either forget it or try to get a workaround or the slowness or stability becomes an issue. I just got sick of it the other day and ordered Logic Studio from Amazon for $460, seemed like an amazing deal.

I also just think DP is really 'sluggish'. Like when first starting up, when disabling V-Racks, enabling one sequence chunk for another, etc. I also got tired of having to make up for losing CPUs when using a lot of VIs at the same time or sacrificing live playability by increasing the buffer.

However, after using Logic, it does seem to have a lot fewer features than DP. It's just that it seems to do what it does faster, and the built in VIs are easy to find and use.

I'm trying to use logic right now to do some film scoring and it seems pretty lacking in how it interacts with Video, so again I'm stuck and have to think of an efficient workflow.

If DP was faster and more stable it wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for any advice!

-Keith

[rcannonp]

I also just started trying to use Device Groups, and hit another crashing bug which seems to be well known (using more than 1 device group).

5.13 seems to have fixed the device group bug.

[kmoreau893]

I'm downloading 5.13 as I type, I guess it just came out. In general, I'm really tired of crashy "professional" apps on the Mac. An application that you pay $500 or $1000 for (I've probaby invested $2000 in DP over the years with upgrades, etc) just shouldn't crash. I use Final Cut Studio 2 as well and it can crash and there is voodoo people do to make it more stable.

I understand there are limitations, like CPU with VIs etc but just don't 'go away'. An also if this stuff happens there are crash logs that can reveal what is going on and Motu should come out with a patch as soon as it's reported with enough good info. Like when somebody just 'feels' that Motu is about to crash because it's starting to get sluggish..., well it just shouldn't crash. Or the fix for that crash should have been devloped days after it was reported.

Or when people just make sure the hit 'save' before they do anything. (like I've learned to do) Well, that costs time and if you're a pro, money over the course of a project to always have to make sure your app isn't going to crash. I'm a software development manager and there is software you can add to your software that detects bad things in the code or if something does go wrong it will return a meaningful error-but it won't crash.

If DP is the only digital audio program for the Mac, then you have to live with it, but if there is alternative, then you can switch. MOTU should try to put some resources behind the stability and speed, because now there is a least some alternative, Logic.

Anway, sorry for the rant, I think DP has amazing 'promise' but I need to get some work done, I want to be able to use the features 'promised' by the marketing without it crashing. I want to be able to click on twenty buttons in quick succession and not have it crash. I want to be able to go to the limits, like having maxed out VIs, or changing buffer or other settings, without having to worry about it crashing. Put up an error, like "too many VIs" or "out of RAM" or something, but don't crash. I don't want to have to re-engineer my whole computer system so that DP will be happy. I understand it may be 10% slower because I haven't optimized it for DP and I'm willing to put up with that, but just don't crash.

Thanks for listening and I'm still looking for a good export import workflow with DP in conjuction with L8 that doesn't require a lot manual entry.

-Keith

[Frodo]

I'm downloading 5.13 as I type, I guess it just came out. In general, I'm really tired of crashy "professional" apps on the Mac. An application that you pay $500 or $1000 for (I've probaby invested $2000 in DP over the years with upgrades, etc) just shouldn't crash. I use Final Cut Studio 2 as well and it can crash and there is voodoo people do to make it more stable.

I hear ya, Keith. Of course, some malfunction is almost to be expected, but I agree that it should not be a matter of routine.

I understand there are limitations, like CPU with VIs etc but just don't 'go away'. An also if this stuff happens there are crash logs that can reveal what is going on and Motu should come out with a patch as soon as it's reported with enough good info. Like when somebody just 'feels' that Motu is about to crash because it's starting to get sluggish..., well it just shouldn't crash. Or the fix for that crash should have been devloped days after it was reported.

Been there many times. One issue is that MOTU can't always duplicate the problem. Different combos of third-party apps and drivers can have a negative impact on some systems. So, I can understand the dilemma on all sides where a so-called fix may address one part of an issue (where it can even be confirmed) but that the other part of the issue requires the cooperation and punctuality of any suspected third-party culprit. It's a tricky call trying to confirm a problem. Some issues have been reported to MOTU for years that still remain, while other issues appear to get fixed gradually. Some fixes break other features, and then the wait begins for a fix of the fix of the fix of the fix--- you know the jam.

If DP is the only digital audio program for the Mac, then you have to live with it, but if there is alternative, then you can switch. MOTU should try to put some resources behind the stability and speed, because now there is a least some alternative, Logic.

Yup-- it's called Plan B...

Anway, sorry for the rant, I think DP has amazing 'promise' but I need to get some work done, I want to be able to use the features 'promised' by the marketing without it crashing. I want to be able to click on twenty buttons in quick succession and not have it crash. I want to be able to go to the limits, like having maxed out VIs, or changing buffer or other settings, without having to worry about it crashing. Put up an error, like "too many VIs" or "out of RAM" or something, but don't crash. I don't want to have to re-engineer my whole computer system so that DP will be happy. I understand it may be 10% slower because I haven't optimized it for DP and I'm willing to put up with that, but just don't crash.

Thanks for listening and I'm still looking for a good export import workflow with DP in conjuction with L8 that doesn't require a lot manual entry.

-Keith

And therein lies a very well-stated summation of how so many people feel right now. You love DP. You want it to work well. Sometimes it's okay, but sometimes you just hold your breath wondering whether "the lion will catch the antelope" this time. So many weeks go by without a crash and suddenly you get paranoid, almost wishing it would just happen already so you can take care of it and get back to work.

But perhaps 5.13 will prove to be a substantial step in the right direction. I certainly hope so.