A competitive DP

[chrispick]

All this Logic 8 hullaballoo has me thinking about how to improve DP to make it more competitive. Here are some of my ideas...

1. Beat 'em at the quality level.

This means developing/acquiring/integrating top-level plug-ins. The current ones are adequate, at best. Yesterday's processing effects aren't good enough for today's market expectations.

Few users love Logic's native plugs. DP would win over many if it were perceived as the DAW with the best plugs out of the box.

2. Beat 'em at the price point.

Logic dropped down to DP's price range. If MOTU can drop DP's price by a small percentage, it'd be more appealing to intro users (at the least).

3. Match 'em at the UI design point.

There's a lot that's nice and functional about DP's interface, but there's not much that attracts the eye. It could be cleaner, more selectively colorful, sleeker, more text-legible. At the least, it ought to be freshened up a bit. Most products that've sustained a long life have undergone many a face-lift (cosmetics count).

*********

That's my quick-and-dirty what-not. Thoughts?

[Frodo]

All this Logic 8 hullaballoo has me thinking about how to improve DP to make it more competitive.

I've been quietly obsessing about this all year, Colonel. Before I proceed, keep in mind that I agree with you.

Here are some of my ideas...

1. Beat 'em at the quality level.

This means developing/acquiring/integrating top-level plug-ins. The current ones are adequate, at best. Yesterday's processing effects aren't good enough for today's market expectations.

In this respect, it's MOTU who must first believe that the same plugins which have been recycled for all these years need a facelift where the turnkey standards have been raised considerably in other areas of the plugin world. Nuendo 4 is boasting 38 new plugins. I wasn't aware that Nuendo's plugins were suffering so much based upon what Steinberg has had to say about them. But MOTU has to first come to terms with its own concept of what's *good*, what's *good enough*, and what is not cutting for users. A plethora of third-party options via AU/Core Audio offer less motivation for them, perhaps.

2. Beat 'em at the price point.

Logic dropped down to DP's price range. If MOTU can drop DP's price by a small percentage, it'd be more appealing to intro users (at the least).

True, but iPhone was partially responsible for financing Logic's price drop. Apple is in a comparatively more advantageous position than MOTU might be at this time.

But this has me wondering: Should Steinberg be at all concerned? Nuendo is fairly new (7-ish years?). Is Nuendo really 3-4 times better than DP or Logic? Digidesign set the price bar high and kept it there for ProTools, and DP comes along with a more affordable option. Steinberg then jockies itself price-wise between the two. It's a precarious position at this point now that Logic has been slashed by 50%.

I guess the point for MOTU, from my guesses, is whether they can afford to lower prices at all?

3. Match 'em at the UI design point.

There's a lot that's nice and functional about DP's interface, but there's not much that attracts the eye. It could be cleaner, more selectively colorful, sleeker, more text-legible. At the least, it ought to be freshened up a bit. Most products that've sustained a long life have undergone many a face-lift (cosmetics count).

That's my quick-and-dirty what-not. Thoughts?

This sort of goes back to the plugins issue. Does MOTU really think that DP's GUI is lacking? To that extent, does it matter to them what people are even saying about L8? What if MOTU simply finds Logic as abysmal as it always has and sees no need to adapt someone else's concept of what is attractive?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as always. MOTU may still be quite proud of the way DP looks.

But this whole conundrum for me centers around the fork in the road where what *many* or *some* users want apparently parts ways with what MOTU thinks is adequate and proper on their behalf (or its own).

But as it continues to rain major DAW updates, I'll borrow a phrase I heard earlier today from another context: *You can't win by not losing*. There are some legit improvements escalating in DAW world now which can no longer be observed so casually from the sidelines as though they were some sort of passing fad. Apps are leaving Carbon behind and going full Cocoa. OSX is a small handful of weeks away from a major tummy tuck.

Who knows-- DP may have a major trick up its sleeve sooner than later (I hope). But I personally don't want to wait another MachFive lifetime for DP to clean itself up.

Yours are keen observations,. For the moment, I swim in a soup where hope and reality can hardly be distinguished from one another.

[rcannonp]

All this Logic 8 hullaballoo has me thinking about how to improve DP to make it more competitive. Here are some of my ideas...

1. Beat 'em at the quality level.

This means developing/acquiring/integrating top-level plug-ins. The current ones are adequate, at best. Yesterday's processing effects aren't good enough for today's market expectations.

Few users love Logic's native plugs. DP would win over many if it were perceived as the DAW with the best plugs out of the box.

2. Beat 'em at the price point.

Logic dropped down to DP's price range. If MOTU can drop DP's price by a small percentage, it'd be more appealing to intro users (at the least).

3. Match 'em at the UI design point.

There's a lot that's nice and functional about DP's interface, but there's not much that attracts the eye. It could be cleaner, more selectively colorful, sleeker, more text-legible. At the least, it ought to be freshened up a bit. Most products that've sustained a long life have undergone many a face-lift (cosmetics count).

*********

That's my quick-and-dirty what-not. Thoughts?

I think that the interface could use a few tweaks, but I generally like it like it is. I've never liked the dark gray, low contrast look of the Apple Pro apps. I've had Final Cut Express for a few years and I've never gotten used to the look of it. I sure hope that MOTU doesn't move DP in that direction.

As far as price goes, I sure felt a lot better about $150 for an upgrade than $195. Maybe the new Logic pricing will help out on that front.

One thing that has always bugged me about DP is that it sort of feels like an audio app grafted onto a MIDI app. In most other apps that I've tried, audio editing and MIDI editing are functionally the same in the macro editing page. I would like to see MOTU work on that.

A demo would also be cool. They would have to revamp their copy protection system though.

[zaster]

I've never owned a MOTU interface, but from what I understand, MOTU never bundles DP in with it? Cause I'd think that would be a good strategy- they sell a lot of em. I know it seems like way too big of a "freebie", but it could get a lot of people starting off with DP instead of M-Box/PTLE for example. Besides, it's not like the "new user" demographic (uncommitted which DAW/card to use) will start off with something like Logic/Apogee. A lot of Logic users are probably MOTU interface users. And they may not have bothered with Logic if there'd been a bundled DP.

One thing that has always bugged me about DP is that it sort of feels like an audio app grafted onto a MIDI app. In most other apps that I've tried, audio editing and MIDI editing are functionally the same in the macro editing page. I would like to see MOTU work on that.

I respectfully disagree. L8 looks even less like an audio app, IMO. (I assume we mean good ol' PT when we say audio app?) In the sequence editor with all audio tracks showing, DP looks more like that than Logic.

A demo would also be cool. They would have to revamp their copy protection system though.

Or maybe a MOTU-interface-bundled version could be an LE?

[duncan]

I've never owned a MOTU interface, but from what I understand, MOTU never bundles DP in with it?

It's been a while since I bought my last interface, but motu used to bundle their audio-only app with their audio interfaces, which was, basically, DP without MIDI.

One thing motu will probably have to deal with is sound quality for ITB mixing. There's a file comparison over at Gearslutz - the same song mixed in DP and L8, and the L8 file sounds more open - less dark and muddy. Could be a fluke, or could be L8 has a more open sound. We shall see.

[zaster]

will probably have to deal with is sound quality for ITB mixing. There's a file comparison over at Gearslutz - the same song mixed in DP and L8, and the L8 file sounds more open - less dark and muddy.

Is this possible? I thought the prevailing wisdom was that no DAW has any percepible "sound"? Do you mean due to its plug-ins, or really truly the app?

[chrispick]

One thing motu will probably have to deal with is sound quality for ITB mixing. There's a file comparison over at Gearslutz - the same song mixed in DP and L8, and the L8 file sounds more open - less dark and muddy. Could be a fluke, or could be L8 has a more open sound. We shall see.

If this test is like past ones, the discrepancy is due to pan law and volume differences.

[iMAS]

I think that the interface could use a few tweaks, but I generally like it like it is. I've never liked the dark gray, low contrast look of the Apple Pro apps.

Just thought I'd mention that in Logic 8, you can change the background in the arrange and piano roll to any color you like. Heck...you can make it all white...if the factory gray is too dark for your taste.

Anyways, I'm still a complete noob to Logic 8. Only had it for a few days, but so far, I'm very impressed with it. IMHO, Motu/DP has its work cut out for them.

[chrispick]

I think that the interface could use a few tweaks, but I generally like it like it is.

For the most part, I'm okay with it too, but to be competitive in the market it needs some kind of face-lift, if just to appear fresh and attended to.

One thing that has always bugged me about DP is that it sort of feels like an audio app grafted onto a MIDI app.

Agreed. In fact, all of their added functions seem grafted on. Wings on an elephant, as it were.

Take folders for a quick example. Why should I have to wade through sub-menus to add a VI, MIDI track and containment folder? To my mind, that should be the default, one-step setting. But, clearly, folders were a function added ontop of existing capabilities rather than integrated at a sounder, root level.

I understand the need to get the most mileage out of prior development investments, but the time is right for a ground-up overhaul. It'd be prudent to be proactive about this.

[zaster]

Just thought I'd mention that in Logic 8, you can change the background in the arrange and piano roll to any color you like. Heck...you can make it all white...if the factory gray is too dark for your taste.

The execution of this is pretty half-assed- only the part of the Piano Roll where the MIDI notes go changes to the lighter background. The Velocity lane stays the same And only the part of the Arrange where the regions go, not the ruler bars, not the track names/inspector third of the screen.. So if you change those 2 parts to the lighter color or a different color, you have a two-tone effect with everything else still the dark gray. IMO that would be extremely distracting/ cluttered.

[iMAS]

So if you change those 2 parts to the lighter color or a different color, you have a two-tone effect with everything else still the dark gray. IMO that would be extremely distracting/ cluttered.

Well, if you make it bright orange...yeah. But I find it very hard to edit MIDI notes with that dark background. It's nice to have the option to make that dark color a bit lighter though.

[iMAS]

Few users love Logic's native plugs. DP would win over many if it were perceived as the DAW with the best plugs out of the box.

DP would win over many if it establishes itself as the most stable and least buggiest DAW. This is the area I believe DP can really try to take advantage of. I've only toyed with Logic 8 for a few days and I already noticed some bugs...like Logic forgetting my preferences....yikes !!

I remember awhile back at the VSL forums that some were considering giving DP a shot because someone mentioned they were able to get better performances out of those VSL VI's compared to Logic. (Frodo, correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Shooshie]

One thing motu will probably have to deal with is sound quality for ITB mixing. There's a file comparison over at Gearslutz - the same song mixed in DP and L8, and the L8 file sounds more open - less dark and muddy. Could be a fluke, or could be L8 has a more open sound. We shall see.

If this test is like past ones, the discrepancy is due to pan law and volume differences.

Which boil down to skill, since one can incorporate any sort of pan one desires using Trim.

Trim! It's not just a plugin; it's the LAW!





Shooshie

[zaster]

If this test is like past ones, the discrepancy is due to pan law and volume differences.

Which boil down to skill, since one can incorporate any sort of pan one desires using Trim.

Ouch my aching head- I think some of what you guys are talking about must have hit it while flying over! Got any links to go read more about this stuff?

[zaster]

So if you change those 2 parts to the lighter color or a different color, you have a two-tone effect with everything else still the dark gray. IMO that would be extremely distracting/ cluttered.

Well, if you make it bright orange...yeah. But I find it very hard to edit MIDI notes with that dark background. It's nice to have the option to make that dark color a bit lighter though.

Not orange, even just white. Imagine looking at this all day: