Bounce to disk volume is way low

[Gerk]

Hi Everyone

I know this has been discussed before (and the recommendation is to send out the mixes to be mastered) ... in the case of the track I've just finished that's not really an option .. there's no budget for it.

My question is this though, i ran the mix again in a separate project just to master it, the levels are beautiful going out to my digital console directly from DP, right on the mark .. but when I bounce to disk the levels I get from the final 24 bit AIFF bounce are literally HALF of what they should be (and half of what they are coming direct from DP) .. this is comparing while playing back in both itunes and quicktime. Other commercially produced product is up to normal level in the same players, so it doesn't seem to be anything with the player changing things... I've also tried outputting 16 bit with the same result.

Just wondering if there's something Im missing or if there's anything I can do to get the bounce to disk the same as the playback levels .. I'm thinking I've just missed setting somewhere but after poring through the manual and the threads here I haven't found a solution yet...

Help! I have to get this onto a website tonight and I'd like it to be on par level wise with other material!

Gerk

[Gerk]

Hmm this is super odd. there must be something I'm missing here I load up the AIFF into Peak and the levels look fine. I play it back and the levels are fine ... but even burning directly to CD from peak I get the same crappy low levels. !! help! hehe

[FM]

if i'm understanding you right... you are using the BTD command, right?

as an alternative would you consider recording your mix to a separate stereo track instead?

is that an option?

that's how i always do it and my levels are usually good.

FM

FM, the example he sets is a first class ticket to nowhere.

[Shooshie]

Chances are, you're using an Audio Interface like 2408 or 828 or 896 with a volume knob on it, and you've got the volume knob turned up high. So, when you listen to it through the interface, you hear things the way you want them. Burn them to disk, and you find out where they really are.

Go through your audio chain from first input to final output and try to set things for unity gain--that is, no more, no less than the original sound. In other words, the last sound out should equal the volume of the first sound in. It's tricky, and MOTU did not make it easy on those interfaces. On mixing boards like the Mackies (or any quality board) you will usually have a mark showing where to set your sliders and knobs for Unity Gain. In DP, there is a mark on the faders at 0dB, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's unity gain. Check the CueMix instructions for your audio interface, there may be something about it in the manual, but I'm not aware of it.

Anyway, maybe someone can post tricks on how to achieve unity gain. I do it by comparison to a box that's always at Unity Gain - my 1296, or on my 896, I switch the volume control from Phones-Only to Main Out. I adjust the knob until those two are equal. (you'd have to see how it works to understand why that works)

Once you get some idea of where to set everything, then you will know if you need a limiter/expander to jack up your final volume. Until you master your audio chain, however, I don't recommend using the limiter.

Shooshie

[Tim]

Have you tried Normalising the gain of the sound file? That and a couple dB (depending on type of music) of limiting might help.

[Gerk]

hey FM

I have recorded out to a separate stereo mix .. and then brought that mix into a new DP project to master. I guess some of this comes back down to the fact that it's nor professionally mastered, but I don't understand why the levels are so far out when playing back from the burned CD or directly from the AIFF files with a non-pro-audio type player :/

[Gerk]

Originally posted by Tim:
Have you tried Normalising the gain of the sound file? That and a couple dB (depending on type of music) of limiting might help.

hey Tim

not much normalize would do for me here I don't think... my max level is -0.3 DB on the file in question.

[Gerk]

Thanks, I'm thinking that's exactly what's going on, I'm using a 2408, but testing the final audio through the G5's built in audio interface.

I think I can also chalk some of this up to my poor mastering skill as well LOL. I'm paranoid to overly compress and lose all the dynamics (this piece is very dynamic).

I'll check out all the cuemix stuff and see if I can't get the levels worked out a little better.

Thanks again!

Originally posted by Shooshie:
Chances are, you're using an Audio Interface like 2408 or 828 or 896 with a volume knob on it, and you've got the volume knob turned up high. So, when you listen to it through the interface, you hear things the way you want them. Burn them to disk, and you find out where they really are.

Go through your audio chain from first input to final output and try to set things for unity gain--that is, no more, no less than the original sound. In other words, the last sound out should equal the volume of the first sound in. It's tricky, and MOTU did not make it easy on those interfaces. On mixing boards like the Mackies (or any quality board) you will usually have a mark showing where to set your sliders and knobs for Unity Gain. In DP, there is a mark on the faders at 0dB, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's unity gain. Check the CueMix instructions for your audio interface, there may be something about it in the manual, but I'm not aware of it.

Anyway, maybe someone can post tricks on how to achieve unity gain. I do it by comparison to a box that's always at Unity Gain - my 1296, or on my 896, I switch the volume control from Phones-Only to Main Out. I adjust the knob until those two are equal. (you'd have to see how it works to understand why that works)

Once you get some idea of where to set everything, then you will know if you need a limiter/expander to jack up your final volume. Until you master your audio chain, however, I don't recommend using the limiter.

Shooshie

[FM]

Shooshie's advice is definetly something to heed.

when you recorded to a separate track, did you try auditioning the resulting soundbite from the soundbites window?
was it "loud"?

this IS strange...

FM

FM is experiencing total protonic reversal.

[Gerk]

Yep it is fairly loud .. almost on par.

i think that this all just comes down to my poor mastering skills to be honest, things seemed ok with cuemix and the 2408. The levels seem to be close to on par when you look closely at them, just not across all the audio spectrum. It seems it's more of a perceived volume or SPL thing than it is actual output levels On close examination all the levels coming out of iTunes and Quicktime are pretty similar, mine just sounds quieter.

Wish there was a budget to get this one properly mastered hehe.

Anyone out there wanna master a freebie? LOL

[Jeff]

Gerk,

As far as normalizing your interface, I don't know if you'd call it a true, voltage output unity gain without knowing how to use an oscilliscope, but the easy thing is to change the jumper settings in your 2408.

The info to do this is in the hardware manual. You're basically rerouting the headphone out on the front to be a master volume, not a headphone out put. Then you dime out that volume pot. Route your monitor outs (Analog 1-2 is default for analog as the mirror) to a mixer, or to a power amp that affects your whole monitor system, or a Big Knob, or whatever. Another MONITORING master gain stage. Then you can adjust the volume in the room, and everything going through the interface at all is as loud as it could be at any given setting in any audio program itself. Know what I mean?

In the bounce to disc, you're probably bouncing your main out, i.e. Analog 1-2 by default. If the volume knob on the front affects the output setting and it's turned down, you're mirroring and bouncing an attenuated signal. So your mix is anemic and sucks. Normalizing a lame level signal will only magnify the lousy signal to noise ratio you've just bounced by having the output closer to the noise floor. So you'd actually be doing damage to your original quality by "mastering" it this way.

Set the pot up to be output volume on the 2408, crank it. Reference the post on the Toast ding level just to ingrain some common sense warnings you'll have to deal with i.t.o. monitoring.

[croyal]

And- set the Mac's audio output (Sound preferences panel) to use the 2408 as the output device, not the built in audio driver. Then turn your Mac alert sounds way down, as CD playback will now come through your 2408.