L8 Whoa!

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:37 pm

Zaster's post just underscores what I said earlier, and what Giles also said: the game is MOTU's to win, and all they have to do is make DP consistent, stable and efficient. Give us that, and DP will be the place to turn when Logic frustrates.

Shooshie

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:41 pm

Anyone try the spectrum analyzer for noise reduction yet? It is the main reason I would buy L8 if it works. (Same price as Sound Soap Pro!)

As far as the "takes" feature, I wouldn't find it useful at all for my work. I used it in DP a few times, but I always know pretty much what I want before playing it and if it ain't a perfect take (or as least acceptable to me) then I won't patch together pieces. Maybe because I also insist that the work be repeatable in performance. Old school again... I think they used to call it "discipline" or something like that...

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:23 pm

zaster wrote:.... Even a new open file just sitting there shows what seems to be an excessive amount of CPU usage. So, pending further testing, this part of my hopes for Logic- that it's somehow optimized better with Mac and will run more efficiently- so far doesn't seem to be true. I don't remember who posted about the increased performance, being able to load a lot more plugs, but I wonder if they were using the same plugs in DP and L8 or comparing DPs stock plugs with Logic's included ones. It is obvious that Logic has optimized performance for it's own plugs, and EXS for example has some ability to access unlimited RAM.

I've always been under the impression that Logic was rather closed-ended, especially L8. DAWs didn't really slow down until developers began making so many components cross-compatible. MAS works well in DP. EXS works well in Logic-- and each works *only* within the confines for which they were intended. Reconciling terms such as "universal" or "cross-platform" have been difficult to reconcile with ther terms like "efficiency" and stability.

But you entire post goes back to something that I've always felt and confirms it once again: at least half of what I learn from a different DAW gives me some new appreciation for DP-- or at least for DP's concept/intent.

At the end of the day, I'm always left feeling as though the grass is not actually greener on the other side-- it's only a different shade of green.

zaster · Post by **zaster** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:22 pm

I am simply curious to know if there's a camp of orchestral writers/ mocker-uppers who prefer logic. I'm no expert but the workflow seems pretty tough for that type of note by note cc shaping and articulation switching. On the one hand, you can assign different notes within a MIDI phrase to different channels which would be cool if you could take advantage of the different note colors to track which patches were being used. That would be the bomb, as they say. Unfortunately, the different colored notes are uselessly relegated to the task of differentiating velocities. Why anyone would need something like that and how that could be convenient as a visual aid (wait••“ is green louder or orange?

) I can't fathom. Additionally, the velocity bars are sideways, which sort of destroys that visually intuitive curve you get when you look at the velocities over a phrase. Another weak concept, IMO.

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:54 pm

Not sure how Zasters MBP is configured, but I havnt encountered any of those excessive CPU useage issues in Logic.

Thast what pisses me off about DP.

I have an orchestrated pc with 54 parts. Logic with VSL PRO and BFD for the Drums runs it flawlessly. Even with an EXS Bardstown Bosendorfer.

BUT...

DP will play the BFD, choke on the Bosey and forget the VSL (even with Kontakts scaled down version). Bad Dream.... Now, mind you, it isnt as bad as protools which chokes on everything. LOL. BUT... It should be at least onpar with Logic. Par would make me happy. But subPar... BAH!!!!

I use this orchestrated project as my DAW test. If it can do it 50-70% successfully, I am very happy.

if not, keep looking. LOL.

Oh yeah.... One more thing.. Although Logics Audio Engine is greatly improved, it STILL ISNT AS WARM as MAS. Thats promising. And ... well... it isnt as brittle or cold as PT.....

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:47 pm

zaster wrote:I am simply curious to know if there's a camp of orchestral writers/ mocker-uppers who prefer logic. I'm no expert but the workflow seems pretty tough for that type of note by note cc shaping and articulation switching.

When I've tried Logic in the past, that was my major complaint. Not just a complaint; it was simply not acceptable for the way I work. I'm hoping that has changed somewhat. You're kinda killin' that hope!

Also, I've made this very comparison in this forum before on a number of occasions, and some have agreed with me, others have blasted me with full-on flame cannons. (well... maybe I exaggerate a bit) But I really do wonder if those people, the ones who flamed me, have ever really done a lot of work this way. I think in terms of an orchestral score, and I write that way even if I'm writing on a "piano roll." I've slowly grown open to using loops. They've always felt like "cheating." They remind me of hip-hop, dragging in bits and pieces of other people's music to make your own. Very quickly -- in a matter of minutes -- you have laid down what takes me a day to do. But the next guy lays down similar loops and it sounds the same. When I write it, nobody's loops sound like mine. Of course, when you have 18,000 loops to choose from, I guess you can get a lot of individuation into your music... in just a few minutes.

zaster wrote: On the one hand, you can assign different notes within a MIDI phrase to different channels which would be cool if you could take advantage of the different note colors to track which patches were being used. That would be the bomb, as they say. Unfortunately, the different colored notes are uselessly relegated to the task of differentiating velocities. Why anyone would need something like that and how that could be convenient as a visual aid (wait••“ is green louder or orange? ) I can't fathom.

I haven't gotten my copy of Logic yet. (It'll be here on Thursday, according to Brad at Sweetwater) This does not sound promising. Are you sure you can't turn those colors into some other use? That sucks!

zaster wrote:Additionally, the velocity bars are sideways, which sort of destroys that visually intuitive curve you get when you look at the velocities over a phrase. Another weak concept, IMO.

YIKES!!! No drawing velocity shapes? Are you sure? I can't do this! If that's the way Logic works, I may have to cancel my order, because I literally do all my phrasing that way. Well, all that doesn't get played in the way I want it.

Egad... I don't know about this thing.

Shooshie

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:58 pm

Shooshie wrote:
zaster wrote:Additionally, the velocity bars are sideways, which sort of destroys that visually intuitive curve you get when you look at the velocities over a phrase. Another weak concept, IMO.
YIKES!!! No drawing velocity shapes? Are you sure? I can't do this! If that's the way Logic works, I may have to cancel my order, because I literally do all my phrasing that way. Well, all that doesn't get played in the way I want it.

Egad... I don't know about this thing.

Shooshie

Yikes (egads to you) is right. Gee, maybe the new girlfriend has the clap!!!

Could it be that L8 lacks a certain "sophistication" when it comes to robust MIDI editing? All those choices in DP with curves and such. Maybe that's in page 1582.3 of the manual?

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:02 pm

If it means anything, My Orchestration guy prefers FInale and DP....

For all of that Articulation and CC stuff. He moves so fast in DP it's insane...

Being a Mixer and not a MIDI editor he taught me a bunch of things. And he was/is a Logic guy for YEARS.....

ba_hill · Post by **ba_hill** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:05 pm

You can draw velocity shapes. They (along with continuous controllers, pithbend, etc.) can be easily edited in the Hyper Editor. Not surprisingly, the way Logic allocates varous tools, and tasks between windows is different from DP in many cases. This is one of those cases where you can do the same thing in almost the exact same way but it's in a different window in Logic than in DP.

Brian

Shooshie wrote: YIKES!!! No drawing velocity shapes? Are you sure? I can't do this! If that's the way Logic works, I may have to cancel my order, because I literally do all my phrasing that way. Well, all that doesn't get played in the way I want it.

Egad... I don't know about this thing.

Shooshie

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:06 pm

giles117 wrote:If it means anything, My Orchestration guy prefers FInale and DP....

My orchestration buds in LA prefer Finale as well. Librarians (who generally have to work a bit faster - like changing things between rehearsal and performance for 106 musicians) seem to like Sibelius. At least the younger ones do.

As I mentioned to Frodo the other day, I really prefer to do it all in Finale if it is going to print. But i will be staying with DP. Apple has enough of my $$$ and I can do everything I need with a minimum of pain. Hopefully by the time I get an intel machine (if ever) all the issues will have been corrected with DP8 (code name Nano Chip Digital Super Star... right MOTU?)

crufty · Post by **crufty** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:59 pm

L8 doesn't have folders, which makes multi-timbural insts. a pain.

I like the arrange window, it gels for me, as I live (musically anyway) in patterns.

Learning curve isn't too bad, will have to try that hyper edit--not sure if that is a one time conversion thing, or a constant real time. I spent 4 hours today figuring out the reason why there was no audio output from the computer was because somehow I had solo'd the click (thereby muting all vi's, but not the MIDI).

Big win for me today, unrelated to l8 or dp, is I finally hooked up all my power boxes to one of those remote control switches meant for xmas lights, so now I can turn on everything from my seat. We'll see what kind noise that means...

One thing I don't get is why I still have to manually type in patch names in 2007. ARGGG.

PeterMcCStrat · Post by **PeterMcCStrat** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:08 pm

yes, of course you can edit velocity, easily, and yes,..L8 has folders too.

Geez guys,... is anyone reading the manual?

as for DP,. being "warm" ,.... hmmmn

pm

zaster · Post by **zaster** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:36 pm

Shooshie wrote: YIKES!!! No drawing velocity shapes? Are you sure? I can't do this! If that's the way Logic works, I may have to cancel my order, because I literally do all my phrasing that way. Well, all that doesn't get played in the way I want it.

No- sorry that's not what I was saying! You can draw velocity shapes, it works pretty close to how we have it (although I didn't see any shaper tools like we have for drawing, just straight lines)- what I was saying is the velocity bars are sideways. Like so:

For me it kills the more intuitive contour created by the "mountains and valleys" of the velocity bars seen over the timeline. Am I being crazy or does anyone out there know what I'm saying?

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:13 pm

zaster wrote:
Shooshie wrote: YIKES!!! No drawing velocity shapes? Are you sure? I can't do this! If that's the way Logic works, I may have to cancel my order, because I literally do all my phrasing that way. Well, all that doesn't get played in the way I want it.
No- sorry that's not what I was saying! You can draw velocity shapes, it works pretty close to how we have it (although I didn't see any shaper tools like we have for drawing, just straight lines)- what I was saying is the velocity bars are sideways. Like so:

For me it kills the more intuitive contour created by the "mountains and valleys" of the velocity bars seen over the timeline. Am I being crazy or does anyone out there know what I'm saying?

Could you explain what the orange horizontal bars represent? I see dots which represent the velocities vertically, and they correspond to the horizontal bars within the notes themselves, but I don't know what the horizontal orange lines represent.

Shooshie

ba_hill · Post by **ba_hill** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:15 pm

You can draw curves for velocity in the Hyper Editor. They are vertical just like they are in DP. How do you attach a picture to a post. I'll post a screenshot.

Brian