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The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other off topic discussion.

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The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other matters outside deemed outside the scope of helping users make optimal use of MOTU hardware and software. Posts in other forums may be moved here at the moderators discretion. No politics or religion!!
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jgest
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Post by jgest »

monkey man wrote:Wise words, Josh, and I appreciate the optimism.
That pendulum you referred to, that'd be like the weather, stockmarkets, heart rates, moods, decay rates, magnetic flux readings of the earth, birth rates, death and disease rates, lifespans, odds of success in any given situation, fertility rates, live music tempos, singers' and instrumentallists' pitching, evenness of steps whilst walking, sizes of mouthfulls of food eaten, and indeed the meals themselves, energy levels of the body, depth of breaths taken by any individual, temperature fluctuations of the body, hormonal levels in the body, the temperature of a motor engine and the strength of the wind's pendulums, no?

I sure wish that folks would realise that nothing is constant.
Far too many of our false assumptions are based on the naive belief that things are as they always were, and as they'll always be, IMHO. :wink:
I personally have a sense that apple will encounter some "humility" at some point, and the real loosers will be those who have entire set ups dominated with both apple hardware and software. I could be wrong, often I am........
I just have faith in motu and fortunately am nothing but hobbyist so time is on my side to wait and see the great things about to come from the world of DP
Last edited by jgest on Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Macbook pro, 3 gigs of ram, osx 10.62, Dp 5.13, Live 8.1.2, Reason 4, Tc powercore Virus, Albino 3.02, proper ergonomic sitting posture, plenty of coffee (french press only with a pinch of cardamon added)
My dp inspired music.....
http://www.myspace.com/aislingbeing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.myspace.com/wigginsmaroo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mp3.com.au/artist.asp?id=10004" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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monkey man
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Post by monkey man »

Guess what Josh? Me too!

Amen to that, man. :D

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bradswan
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Post by bradswan »

It just doesn't seem that DP is at the top of the priority list at Motu.
Mac Pro Quad 2.66 5gigs ram, OSX.6.1, DP 7.02 Apogee ADX 16, Mytec DAC, Mackie MCU, MTP-AV, Stylus RMX, Ivory, EWQL, Plug Sound Pro, Mach V, Reason, MX4, Ethno-instrument, Virtual Guitarist2, Do I really need all this stuff? UAD-1,2, Waves L3, PSP, Altiverb, Neodynium, AT 5 various other plugz.
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Post by bradswan »

After making this post it also occurred to me that neither is Logic 8 at the top of Apples' priority list.
Mac Pro Quad 2.66 5gigs ram, OSX.6.1, DP 7.02 Apogee ADX 16, Mytec DAC, Mackie MCU, MTP-AV, Stylus RMX, Ivory, EWQL, Plug Sound Pro, Mach V, Reason, MX4, Ethno-instrument, Virtual Guitarist2, Do I really need all this stuff? UAD-1,2, Waves L3, PSP, Altiverb, Neodynium, AT 5 various other plugz.
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PeterMcCStrat
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Post by PeterMcCStrat »

pretty good observations, MOTU hasn't put DP as it's main priority.

I think Apple gets a bashing from many because of it's huge consumer reach. Motu just doesn't have the resources that Apple does.

Apple is working REALLY closely with an EXCELLENT audio company (APOGEE) Don't believe for a second that they aren't interested in making Logic be a great experience when these tools are put together.

Why should this bother me?,.. the fact that my audio card and DAW are better matched than pizza and beer is awesome,.

Sometimes you need a kick in the pants to get your focus, well this is it.
Still,. lack of resources (money) make it hard.
IMO, we see,. or I do at least see Motu as the Mom & Pop shop we want to support. sorry to be corny.
But if things just don't work thats a problem for M&P- Nevermind the fact that it makes moving forward even harder.

maybe the next update of DP, will have a Wiper that doesn't require the precision of a heart surgeon to position,... JEEZ Motu!,.
I think Rick said it pages ago,... "it's the little things"

PM
Mac Pro 2.66 | 4GB ram | OS 10.5.4 | MacBook Pro 2.4 | 2GB ram | 10.5.4 | Apogee Ensemble | Apogee Duet | DP 6.01
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jgest
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Post by jgest »

PeterMcCStrat wrote:pretty good observations, MOTU hasn't put DP as it's main priority.

I think Apple gets a bashing from many because of it's huge consumer reach. Motu just doesn't have the resources that Apple does.

Apple is working REALLY closely with an EXCELLENT audio company (APOGEE) Don't believe for a second that they aren't interested in making Logic be a great experience when these tools are put together.

Why should this bother me?,.. the fact that my audio card and DAW are better matched than pizza and beer is awesome,.

Sometimes you need a kick in the pants to get your focus, well this is it.
Still,. lack of resources (money) make it hard.
IMO, we see,. or I do at least see Motu as the Mom & Pop shop we want to support. sorry to be corny.
But if things just don't work thats a problem for M&P- Nevermind the fact that it makes moving forward even harder.

maybe the next update of DP, will have a Wiper that doesn't require the precision of a heart surgeon to position,... JEEZ Motu!,.
I think Rick said it pages ago,... "it's the little things"

PM
You are right on many points. These are exciting times, and I can't wait to see if mom and pop have to fold and sell because starbucks opened up next store..... :wink:
Fortunately for me there is abelton live my personal GEM at the moment.
Macbook pro, 3 gigs of ram, osx 10.62, Dp 5.13, Live 8.1.2, Reason 4, Tc powercore Virus, Albino 3.02, proper ergonomic sitting posture, plenty of coffee (french press only with a pinch of cardamon added)
My dp inspired music.....
http://www.myspace.com/aislingbeing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.myspace.com/wigginsmaroo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mp3.com.au/artist.asp?id=10004" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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PeterMcCStrat
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Post by PeterMcCStrat »

MOTU won't fold, they will just focus on how the bread gets buttered
(I assume hardware?)

I used to teach a lot in retail stores as well as my studio but realized soon after Guitar Center popped up every 20 miles.

These stores didn't get by selling guitars anymore, but the lessons paid the freight.

I still don't consider Apple and "Evil Empire"....
Mac Pro 2.66 | 4GB ram | OS 10.5.4 | MacBook Pro 2.4 | 2GB ram | 10.5.4 | Apogee Ensemble | Apogee Duet | DP 6.01
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Shooshie
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Post by Shooshie »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
Shooshie wrote:...From 1986 to 2002 everything in Performer/DP just worked. ...

Shooshie
Do you know if there was an ownership, management, or personnel change (specifically software engineers?) at the time? I also wonder about how tech support is managed and if the bugs we report actually make it to the software engineers?
I can think of only one thing. There is a guy, Aaron Hillegass, who used to host a software camp for anyone wanting to learn Cocoa. He was well-known in the coding business. He wrote the book on OpenStep (literally) and he taught people simply and straightforwardly how to code in what he thought was the world's greatest programming environment: Cocoa. I forget which languages it focused on; probably C++ and Java. Cocoa wasn't so much a language as an environment, if I remember correctly. My son does all this stuff, so I only get a glimpse over his shoulder now and then, and he kind of wanted to go to that camp (Big Nerd Ranch), but I couldn't afford that, so we bought the book and followed him online.

One day in article about him, there appeared a line about Mark of the Unicorn and Digital Performer. It seems that maybe MOTU had brought him in either to train their programmers or to help program the OS X version of DP. This was at the beginning of our long wait for DP4. I have no way of knowing whether this was true or just wishful thinking on someone's part, but it was written as though it was just reporting on something that was happening at the time.

It became my assumption, then, that MOTU was having to do a lot of rewriting. The very framework for OSX apps did not allow the endless code-bloat from old languages that did not work according to certain parameters. If you had written your old app in certain languages, you were best-off just starting over and translating it into modern code. That was what Apple was telling everyone at the time, and there were charts that showed what would work and what would not work. I remember those charts very clearly, though I cannot tell you the languages that didn't pass muster. I do remember that C was ok, C+ was better, and C++ or Java were in the groove. Cocoa was where it was at, for once you'd laid out the groundwork for an app, you could reuse most of your code for the next app.

I tried visualizing DP in Cocoa, but I just couldn't see it. It's too big. Too complicated. Cocoa is small, quick, and standardized. Anyway, when Aaron Hillegass allegedly went to work for MOTU, I figured they were having trouble. He was THE expert on Cocoa, and I just hoped that he would be able to take their code and make it work in a new environment. When I got DP 4, it was buggy in ways that told me it was written by someone not familiar with all the inner-connections of the program. There are so many interdependent links in DP, that you can't do anything, anywhere in the code without affecting some other part of the app. It seemed to me that it would be a virtual minefield for any programmer who didn't evolve with the app back in the 80's and 90's.

If I am correct, it would explain most of the problems we've been having. If MOTU's old programmer called it quits back during the shift to Cocoa, and new people took it over, it would have been a terrible dilemma for the company and for DP. It would take 5 or 6 years for new programmers to become familiar enough with the interdependent links and exceptions. Well, that time is rapidly approaching. May 2008 will mark the 5 year point since the release. If my calculations are correct, that's about when we should see a MAJOR shift in the quality of DP. Perhaps even sooner; perhaps in the next couple of months! After all, they were working on it in 2002.

Why 5 years? Personal experience. After 5 years of doing anything, you pretty much own it. After 20 years, you ARE it. But very few people will keep working a high-pressure job like programming the same application for 20 years. Unless, of course, the pay is amazing. I don't think MOTU has deep pockets, so I'm surmising that there was a pretty good shakeup of the original programmers at the time.

One other thing to consider: the original apps at MOTU were written by genius-level people with huge inspiration to make it as good as it possibly can be. As they became more successful, they probably moved upward in management and hired coders. In the late 1990's, coding became the richest profession on earth. Good coders made well into the 6 figures, and small companies either wrote their own or had to make do with anyone they could get at prices they could afford. That could mean beginners or less-than-stellar programmers. Unless the original guys went back and exercised their chops and became music/programming forces again, as they were 20 years before, then it's possible that DP simply hasn't stood a chance at being the quality app it once was.

And there are many other possibilities as well. Perhaps management became blind to the time constraints of programming, and demanded releases before it was ready. Perhaps there was sabotage by a disgruntled programmer. Perhaps Cocoa has turned out to be the world's most buggy environment (I see bad things in nearly every app for OS X that I would never have seen in OS9). Perhaps all of the above. Perhaps none.

It's all speculation. All rumor. It says nothing about MOTU, and everything about how I think; and nothing more. But you asked; I just told you what I think.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
AndyMurdock
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Post by AndyMurdock »

I think I'm done with DP as well. I got the Mach5.2 a few weeks ago, am only able to load up maybe 4 or 5 samples before my systems starts blinkin red.
Logic is super fast by comparison, plus it's new to me. That makes it fun to learn. Pretty too.

Bye bye DP
I still have three MOTU 828mk2s and 6 MOTU MIDI interfaces, MOTU hardware is still king in my castle.
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AlMacMeister
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Post by AlMacMeister »

Shooshie wrote: [a lot of enlightened comments!]
Right. On. The. Money.

I certainly never thought I'd hear Hillegass' name here...

p.s. Tell your son that another book that might be worth checking out (if he hasn't already) is Scott Anguish's cocoa book. It's a bit dated now, but it's verbose in a way that Hillegass' book, well, isn't!
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Timeline
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Post by Timeline »

James Steele wrote:Who knows what will shake out? Not that I want to step on any of this gloom and doom.
Exactly. I'm stayin right here. I'm lovin DP5.12(b) and having good results with plenty of VI's. Why bother learning another. Call me a fan boy, I love it.

Anyway, $500 bucks would get me to Vegas and back with a couple of hundred for the play things.

(b) Graphically modified by me.
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Post by Talcott »

I'm with Giles on alot stuff....

I have an old oaysis card in a g4/400 :), she still runs like a charm.

Since that is only 9.22 compatible I still love doing some work in 3.11 snappy.

I got Logic and it's very nice I will get the DP upgrade, if it's worthy

otherwise I'm finishing up the stuff i have in 3.11,and 4.6, and starting new

stuff in Logic.

Cmon Mark of the Unicorn

don't let us down.
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zaster
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Post by zaster »

Well look at all this... I have been playing with the new L8 for a day or so myself and there are definitely some disappointments. My main excitement about it was the supposed increased performance efficiency. So I dragged in a MIDI file Frodo had linked a while back, Piano and solo Cello, loaded up an instance of Kontakt with less than 100 mb of instrument RAM total and my CPU meter was maxing out on playback. In fact at one point I got the "audio system can't keep up" message and L8 stopped. The CPU meter in Kontakt stayed at around 8% the whole time. Now, granted, I was running at 64 buffer size. But I'm on a MacBook Pro 2.33 and I'm in a DP project today which has a giant BFD kit, a 500 mb Kontakt piano, a Kontakt bass, Guitar Rig, some CSR reverbs all playing back at 64 while I track and no problems. On Apple's Logic forum there are several posts reporting the heavy CPU use of L8. Even a new open file just sitting there shows what seems to be an excessive amount of CPU usage. So, pending further testing, this part of my hopes for Logic- that it's somehow optimized better with Mac and will run more efficiently- so far doesn't seem to be true. I don't remember who posted about the increased performance, being able to load a lot more plugs, but I wonder if they were using the same plugs in DP and L8 or comparing DPs stock plugs with Logic's included ones. It is obvious that Logic has optimized performance for it's own plugs, and EXS for example has some ability to access unlimited RAM. So you CAN load a ton of samples in EXS and run that efficiently, but I have a lot of Kontakt orchestral templates using banks for keyswitching and scripts for some performance parameters, and this deep stuff isn't possible with the EXS. (And besides, the sample libraries I have in Kontakt format are the ones I want to use- why should it be such a heavy hit when it isn't in DP, right?)

It's looking to me like the orchestral ("non-loop") composer would have a harder time in Logic than DP. So far, editing MIDI and cc data seems like a royal pain. The score display is much nicer, but for some reason it massively taxes the system. Still fiddling with it all to see what all the hype is about, if it's warranted, but I have to say it's looking like a lot of overreacting here, or fantasy of the "ideal" workflow. I have had one crash already, and some plugs BFD and Kontakt notably, are also having serious GUI issues. Multiple-output VIs are also looking to be a chore to configure. And apparantly, CC7 cannot be used on your separate Kontakt patches because it turns up the global volume of the whole Kontakt plugin instead. Sorry this post is random and rambling, but I thought you all might want to hear the new girlfriend isn't "all that". :)
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MIDI Life Crisis
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Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

zaster wrote:...I thought you all might want to hear the new girlfriend isn't "all that". :)
Thanks for the post. Funny how going to bed with someone is quite different than waking up in the morning with them...
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zaster
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Post by zaster »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
zaster wrote:...I thought you all might want to hear the new girlfriend isn't "all that". :)
Thanks for the post. Funny how going to bed with someone is quite different than waking up in the morning with them...
I must say though- there were a few cool things, can't remember off the top of my head, but I thought "if only I could do this in DP", then came back to DP today and realized I could have done it all along, it just wasn't in my face or something. OK, like- when you record a bunch of passes for an overdub and then want to listen back through them, I've for some reason been retardedly dragging them over from the soundbites window and using "move to original timestamp", and irritated that they didn't stay in the layers beneath the last pass. Well, duh, overdub button. A little thing like that can slip your mind and you just use some ridiculous workaround without even realizing it and it becomes a totally unnecessary habit. Then you check out a new environment where that one aspect is totally spelled out for you- unless you enable "replace", your previous passes are always beneath the topmost one, and it just highlights you could have done the same thing all along.
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