LOGIC STUDIO AND LOGIC 8 JUST OUT!!

[Frodo]

1. Could it be that the time lag with getting L8 to market is at all indicative of how uneager Apple might be in overtaking the DAW world? If you look at M5v2 as an example-- it took about as long for that to appear from MOTU, and it now doesn't seem to matter whether it's considered to be the actual competitor with Kontakt 2 everyone thought it might be. Strangely enough, K2 and M5v2 seem to be thriving independently without one being a threat to the other.

2. Could it be that the lower prices are in response to years-long complaints about Apple inflating their MSRPs? While the iPhone price drop was oddly timed, computers and other Apple items have generally trended downward over time. DVD Studio Pro came down considerably before it was bundled with Final Cut Studio, and Shake which started out at $3k with source code licenses closer to $50k is now $499. Even if the drops are not in response to complaints, there is a long history of dramatic price drops. Why wouldn't/shouldn't Logic eventually follow in this tradition?

3. The only thing that makes me wonder whether we'd see an even newer, shinier DAW from Apple is that we've not seen a newer and shinier FCP released with the intent of stealing the thunder from Adobe. Just like K2 and M5, FCP and CS3 seem to be co-existing more than competing.

4. To the issue of MS as a model, the parameters change-- and go well beyond what people think about Windows in general. For Apple, 1% of the market share spells profits in the area of 20-25%. It's not clear just how well people would accept an MS DAW, but crimminey-- I'd totally forgotten that there was even a such thing as Zune because I've heard next to nothing about it lately. With electronic musicians expressing radically mixed feelings about Vista, it seems that the risks are actually a lot higher for MS than for Apple. MS certainly has plenty of powerhouse third-party developers writing for XP.

The truth is that the more I think about all of this stuff, the only thing that becomes clear is that I just don't know.

[billf]

IMHO removing the XSkey is an indicator that Apple intends to use their software titles as a strategy to get people to buy Macs.

I agree, but the other point Apple has been making for some time: protecting copyrights with copy restriction schemes inconveniences cusotmers and doesn't prevent piracy.

Absolutely.

[billf]

4. To the issue of MS as a model, the parameters change-- and go well beyond what people think about Windows in general. For Apple, 1% of the market share spells profits in the area of 20-25%. It's not clear just how well people would accept an MS DAW, but crimminey-- I'd totally forgotten that there was even a such thing as Zune because I've heard next to nothing about it lately. With electronic musicians expressing radically mixed feelings about Vista, it seems that the risks are actually a lot higher for MS than for Apple. MS certainly has plenty of powerhouse third-party developers writing for XP.

All true, but another way of viewing this is that once MS moves into an area, they stomp out all competition, so if they had their own DAW, it would mean they intend to crush the field. That said, if the went that direction, I think they would opt for a creative suite strategy (imaging, sound, video etc.) and not just a DAW per se.

[James Steele]

protecting copyrights with copy restriction schemes inconveniences cusotmers and doesn't prevent piracy.

I woud like to humbly disagree with this assertion. I think it prevents a WHOLE LOTTA piracy.

[HCMarkus]

Great discussion folks. Thanks all for the input. My 2 cents: I can't help lusting after all those nice Logic VIs and the uber-efficient engine. The real questions in my mind:

*In light of all the third-party plugs I"ve added to DP, do I really need any of Logic's treats to make better music?

*How much of a hit will I take in efficiency (i.e. learning curve) if I make the move from DP?

*What brilliant features in DP that I don't even recognize now will become painfully obvious as I struggle with Logic?

[OldTimey]

2. Could it be that the lower prices are in response to years-long complaints about Apple inflating their MSRPs? While the iPhone price drop was oddly timed, computers and other Apple items have generally trended downward over time. DVD Studio Pro came down considerably before it was bundled with Final Cut Studio, and Shake which started out at $3k with source code licenses closer to $50k is now $499. Even if the drops are not in response to complaints, there is a long history of dramatic price drops. Why wouldn't/shouldn't Logic eventually follow in this tradition?

Don't forget the Aperture price drop from $499 to $199! Apple is definitely trying to get rid of the "Apple Tax" stigma...it's the #1 complaint by reviewers and consumers regarding their otherwise wholly superior (to Dell, HP etc) offerings.

3. The only thing that makes me wonder whether we'd see an even newer, shinier DAW from Apple is that we've not seen a newer and shinier FCP released with the intent of stealing the thunder from Adobe. Just like K2 and M5, FCP and CS3 seem to be co-existing more than competing.

I just don't think comparing FCP to logic is all that useful...FCP is insanely popular. Bundled with Xsan, and the new Final Cut Server, it is a very very very high end solution to all your video needs, that finally rivals some of Avid's hardware/software solutions. Adobe had might as well not exist when it comes to the pro NLE world...

[bongo_x]

go over to KVR and the like and see how many people are saying "maybe I should get a Mac".

bb

[billf]

protecting copyrights with copy restriction schemes inconveniences cusotmers and doesn't prevent piracy.

I woud like to humbly disagree with this assertion. I think it prevents a WHOLE LOTTA piracy.

To be fair, bayswater was paraphrasing Apple's stance and strategy on DRM, which is well documented. I don't think he was advocating piracy.

[rcannonp]

3. The only thing that makes me wonder whether we'd see an even newer, shinier DAW from Apple is that we've not seen a newer and shinier FCP released with the intent of stealing the thunder from Adobe. Just like K2 and M5, FCP and CS3 seem to be co-existing more than competing.

Final Cut Studio 2 is only five months old isn't it?

I don't think that Apple would put much effort into avoiding competition between FCP and Premiere Pro. Most of the other apps in CS3 are either complimentary or irrelevant to FCP.

[kassonica]

this off the Logic forum;


I have performed some tests within the last hours with Logic Pro 8 on my shiny new 8-Core with 16GB RAM.

I was creating a project with a huge amount of EXS24 instances. Result (I will not go too much in to deep here): There was no RAM restriction anymore, I was using 13GB of RAM for Logic Pro 8 and all used EXS24.

Well it seems that they have pushed the boundries of 32bit

leopard it seems will push this even further

Exciting times ahead

[bayswater]

protecting copyrights with copy restriction schemes inconveniences cusotmers and doesn't prevent piracy.

I woud like to humbly disagree with this assertion. I think it prevents a WHOLE LOTTA piracy.

To be fair, bayswater was paraphrasing Apple's stance and strategy on DRM, which is well documented. I don't think he was advocating piracy.

I certainly wasn't, and I doubt James thinks I was. Neither does Apple, they simply note that protection doesn't stop it, although its probably true that it discourages casual users. I'm surprised to see you disagree James, given that you started up a list with the sole purpose of reducing rampant piracy on just one site.

[James Steele]

I woud like to humbly disagree with this assertion. I think it prevents a WHOLE LOTTA piracy.

To be fair, bayswater was paraphrasing Apple's stance and strategy on DRM, which is well documented. I don't think he was advocating piracy.

I certainly wasn't, and I doubt James thinks I was. Neither does Apple, they simply note that protection doesn't stop it, although its probably true that it discourages casual users. I'm surprised to see you disagree James, given that you started up a list with the sole purpose of reducing rampant piracy on just one site.

Huh? I don't get it... what is your point. I started a list that flags people selling burned DVDs of commercial apps. Many of these may be apps that are protected by serial numbers. I'm in favor of apps being protected by dongles like iLok, because I think iLok goes a long way to discourage piracy. Everybody says the "casual user" is discouraged. How many casual users can find a way to defeat an iLok?

I don't believe that security keys or copy protection is bad. If it were completely removed from all apps you could kiss most of the audio developers goodbye. I'd fully endorse DP using iLok as well.

[James Steele]

I woud like to humbly disagree with this assertion. I think it prevents a WHOLE LOTTA piracy.

To be fair, bayswater was paraphrasing Apple's stance and strategy on DRM, which is well documented. I don't think he was advocating piracy.

I certainly wasn't, and I doubt James thinks I was. Neither does Apple, they simply note that protection doesn't stop it, although its probably true that it discourages casual users. I'm surprised to see you disagree James, given that you started up a list with the sole purpose of reducing rampant piracy on just one site.

Huh? I don't get it... what is your point. I started a list that flags people selling burned DVDs of commercial apps on craiglist. Yes, just one site. Many of these may be apps that are protected by serial numbers. I'm in favor of apps being protected by dongles like iLok, because I think iLok goes a long way to discourage piracy. Everybody says the "casual user" is discouraged. How many casual users can find a way to defeat an iLok?

Back to the list, I'm not sure why you mention "just one site"... I can't do everything, but at least I and the others that joined the list are actively doing something to help in the fight against software piracy which is something that affects ALL OF US negatively and relying on law enforcement to take care of the problem is not enough.

I don't believe that security keys or copy protection is bad. If it were completely removed from all apps the incidence of THEFT would increase exponentially and you could be sure that revenue for software developers would decrease dramatically, and ultimately cause many of them to go out of business or just cease developing new software.

Take that LOCK your your front door. I don't know why you have one. After all, it only discourages the "casual" burgler (a pro will get in) and is inconvenient for you because you have to carry keys and you could forget them. Oh wait... it's YOUR property inside the house so you want a lock. It's a software developer's property on that CD, etc. and if they want to put a lock on there so they can prevent some people from breaking in that's their right.

[Frodo]

Great discussion folks. Thanks all for the input. My 2 cents: I can't help lusting after all those nice Logic VIs and the uber-efficient engine. The real questions in my mind:

*In light of all the third-party plugs I"ve added to DP, do I really need any of Logic's treats to make better music?

Probably not. But then, you, Sir Bravus, exude the kind of musicianship that doesn't necessitate using a DAW at all where quality of music is concerned. So, no. It's never a matter of getting a DAW to make "better music". I wouldn't believe that's why you or any of us got DP. The reasons are probably closer to making the process as painless as possible. If DP does all that you need, there's no reason to want for anything different.

*How much of a hit will I take in efficiency (i.e. learning curve) if I make the move from DP?

That may have to come from those who've used previous versions of Logic who also use DP and who also are getting into L8. First glance reveals a more sensible GUI in L8 than previous versions. But a friend of mine who has L8 says it is a pretty dense manual, although he said nothing about how well or how poorly he thought it had been written.

It also hinges ultimately on how you feel about learning some new ropes. Not everyone has that much time or energy, especially when what they have works well for them.

*What brilliant features in DP that I don't even recognize now will become painfully obvious as I struggle with Logic?

These will perhaps reveal themselves over time, but I hope you never have reason or occasion to discover them. You've read the problem threads here, and may have felt a certain gratitude for not having had the same problems.

Funny as it sounds, an app has to like you as much as you like it. L8 raised a lot of eyebrows, but does it really care what kind of music you make? Or will it dictate to you the ways in which it thinks your music ought to be made?

Dunno the answer to that.

All I know is that when DP works, it doesn't get in the way. When Logic 7 works well, I feel like a slave to its method. I'd love to see if L8 is kindler and gentler than L7, but until that day comes I'm going to continue doing my best to fine tune DP.

[Shooshie]

One more idea about the price cut of Logic Studio. Steve Jobs has seen what can be done with creative people. He's also seen how hard it is for creative people to get experience with the tools they need. The more people get access to those tools, the more likely we are going to see the RIGHT ones get some breaks in the business world, creating the Pixars and Apple Computers of tomorrow. It takes more than money to make great products, great music, great films, and great software. From the beginning, Steve wanted the Mac to be the Great Equalizer; the enabler of incredible skills to people of incredible talent. He knows that such people do not have the money for studios, but have to build them component at a time, watching their collection slide into obsolescence before they even get the key pieces.

Maybe it's as simple as that. Maybe Steve Jobs simply wants those who matter to get their hands on his software and start making things. I think Jobs is proud of the difference he has made in the world, and we all have to admit that what he has done is substantial. Huge. Unprecedented in human history. He's given us all the tools to create the art, music, and mind-wear of the new world.

And he has made it affordable to far more people than ever could dream of it before. I will never forget the years I dreamed of getting my hands on the board in a real studio. Even when I did, I was never able to practice with it and experiment with the thousands of ideas in my mind until I got DP. So, the price cut for Logic Studio makes sense in a bigger picture sort of way: making sure that all the talented people who want to try their hand at creating music for distribution will get that chance.

Shooshie