DP Market Share? Anyone know?

Mr. Quimper · Post by **Mr. Quimper** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:57 am

I'm just curious, if anyone has any figures on how we stack up against the native competition. I don't have any "official" figures, but I assume Logic is leading on the native front, but I wonder how we fare against Steinburg's products, or even Live, Traction, or Samplitude.

I'm guessing Live is probably in third after PT & Logic...sadly I'm going to assume Cubase comes in @ #4...I do wonder where we fit against Nuendo.

And I really, really hope we're at least doing better than Traction and Samplitude. To love the bottom rung DAW would be a bit disheartening...

beautypill · Post by **beautypill** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:00 am

My impression is that Digital Performer is nowhere near Logic in popularity in the world of mac-using musicians. I am surprised about this, because MOTU has a full page glossy ad on the back of every magazine in the world and usually a two-page spread somewhere in the middle too.

According to Audio Damage (a company who makes really cool alternative-minded plug-ins), something like 99% of their Audio Units customers use either Logic or Live.

Logic is generally considered to be more hip than DP, largely because of irrational, aesthetic reasons. It's not that it works better, it's just... cooler.

I think some of this comes down to the nomenclature.

True story: I was sitting in a wireless cafe, sipping a latte and checking my email, reading a blog or two, downloading software updates. A musician friend of mine stopped by and we chatted for a bit. He looked over and saw my screen open to this website. "Unicornation? What is that?" I told him it was a DP-oriented forum. He said "Unicornation... of course. Mark Of The Unicorn. Digtial Performer. That's the thing I can't handle... the names are always so dorky! I could never get into software called Digital Performer..."

This is a guy who uses Logic, Live and Pro Tools. I pointed out to him how dorky the name "Pro Tools" is. He had to concede it was just as bad, maybe worse, but at least he didn't have to look at a Unicorn with a goatee in the logo...

Defensively, I protested "They dropped that logo years ago..." but the battle was lost.

My perception is that Digital Performer has more market penetration in the music-for-picture world: film-scorers, etc. To me, it's the best-made software, period. But I must acknowledge that it still has a little ways to go in terms of appearing "cool." DP needs a marketing makeover, in my opinion.

Apple has been pretty successful in marketing "cool" as part of their brand identity. Go to the Apple Pro page and look at the Alan Wilder piece. Dark sunglasses, stylish fonts and layout. Who cares that the actual music is unlistenable? The presentation is stylish. These are the traits people associate with Apple and Logic. Stylishness. It's what made the iPod a hit when other MP3 players failed...

Pro Tools simply has ubiquity on its side. And that's a lot.

It's all about perception.

Look at Live. Yes, it's cool software, but the UI has a "with it" quasi-futuristic 2007 look. I think that, just as much as its functionality, is what made it a hit.

There's nothing wrong with Digital Performer that a little clever marketing wouldn't fix...

-- c

Mr. Quimper · Post by **Mr. Quimper** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:02 pm

I agree on the marketing front. When I was getting my bachelor's, of course everyone in my department knew Pro Tools, had heard or used Logic and Cubase...but I think only a handful of people had ever even heard of Performer and fewer actually used it (I knew of two other people besides myself in a department of 200 students), so something is truly amiss. I'm also getting the impression that, given it's history, the vast majority of DP users have been w/ the application for a while - I think it lacks something in youthful appeal, for some reason.

Maybe we DP users are part of the problem as well. Should we be doing more word-of-mouth, guerilla marketing for our favorite DAW? More people using DP can only be beneficial for us in the long run, more money to fund the improvement of the product and all.

I am beginning to think that the lack of a demo is seriously hurting the potential for new users. I've been trying to persuade one person on another board to go w/ DP as his Pro Tools alternative as opposed to Nuendo, but he right away said that he may as well just try the demos and decide...

Also, I wonder if people feel unimpressed w/ the deceiving "5" version number...just a thought...

PrimeMover · Post by **PrimeMover** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:26 pm

Not sure, in my experience, I've seen it quite a lot. At Oberlin Conservatory, where I went to school, the electronic music department was using it about 50/50 beside Pro Tools, and it was the first program taught to first years. Also, at the local Army base in my home town, their studio (and remember, this is funded by the DoD) is entirely Digital Performer... no Logic or Pro Tools in sight.

Obviously, this experience is fairly limited, but just from word of mouth, DP5 seems to get just as much attention as Logic, and maybe even as much as Pro Tools (partially because people are just plain tired of talking about Pro Tools). Whether or not this reflects on the user base, I have yet to see.

Mr. Quimper · Post by **Mr. Quimper** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:30 pm

Well, I just got out of the program, and I guess it didn't help things that we were pretty much 100% digi - a few dozen copies of Live and one of Logic, but it was primarily post-production focused, so I can understand their reasoning.

They used to have one machine running DP4 but that was replaced by Logic. The department heads felt DP wasn't "relevant" anymore.

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:59 pm

Mr. Quimper wrote:I am beginning to think that the lack of a demo is seriously hurting the potential for new users.

I agree.

I use DP and really like it these days. And, as you might see, I also work to sustain some sort of user community by posting on this site. But, I do question the longevity of the product line. It's name recognition is definitely slipping.

Case in point:

A few weeks ago I brought stems made in DP to a PT session. The producer, a 20-something dude, really liked my stuff and asked how I created it. I said "I did this-and-that in Digital Performer." He said, "Wow. That program's old." As in, on its last legs.

I wouldn't be surprised to find other music-types his age having the same view.

I think, at the least, MOTU needs to focus an awareness campaign on this demo, particularly in media-prod heavy markets.

My cynical observation: MOTU had good popularity with plain Performer back in the day. The user landscape has changed, but their head regarding the program remains a decade behind.

That's not going to be a popular opinion around here, but there it is.

blue · Post by **blue** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:25 pm

Ditto what Chrispick said.

Like Mr. Quimper, I find most of the people using DP have been using it for a while. They are perhaps a bit older and maybe have their foundation in the pre DAW days. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But perception among 20 somethings and even teens is critical in sustaining the product line, and that perception appears to be negative or indifferent. Sad, really.

I'm not sure what's going to help keep DP in the game. A better marketing campaign, a redesigned interface, features that appeal to makers of current music styles? All of the above? Whatever it takes, it might come at the cost of alienating the current user base.

mikebeckmotu · Post by **mikebeckmotu** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:29 pm

I'd guess that market share could be misleading.
Since music stuff is used in both professional and hobbyist environments, there will likely be a lot of copies of Tracktion sold, simply because it's much less expensive and considered far easier to use. Also, Tracktion is bundled with hardware (or at least it used to be).
I would be interested to know if there were figures regarding DAW usage in professional setups. From my reading, it appears that Logic is very popular in Europe, while the USA has a more scattered user base.
The other thing being that many of us may have more than one DAW app, even though we might use only one as our main app. I say this partly because of seeing many mentions of people having ProTools LE more as a utility for getting projects in and out of their studios rather than actually using it.
I have to agree that it might be time for a marketing touch-up for DP, even though the name is all over the magazines and it tends to get good reviews. MOTU could stress the fact that users are of the long-time variety alongside trying to give it some hip-appeal.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:51 pm

The market share question came up a couple of weeks ago as part of another thread where PT was discussed. The results were inconclusive on what that market share could possibly be. Where Logic benefits in visibility from being associated with Apple and its clever advertising campaigns, it doesn't always tell the whole story.

But visibility can be misleading. Logic likely lost a lot of users when it ceased being cross-platform. The question remains of how Logic and DP stacked up in the market of Mac-only users before and after Apple acquired Logic from Emagic. Even where PT holds its own ground, it's cost prohibitive for lots of people. Who is using any of these apps is less the focus as "how many" people are using each of these apps.

And good luck sifting out the piracy numbers to subtract from any of the already hard-to-find market share figures.

The important thing (I think) is that DP is still here and doesn't appear to be going away. At least I hope that's the case.

Mr. Quimper · Post by **Mr. Quimper** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:11 pm

Frodo wrote:The important thing (I think) is that DP is still here and doesn't appear to be going away. At least I hope that's the case.

I'm just going to assume that it's being sustained through MOTU's hardware and VI sales.

blue · Post by **blue** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:15 pm

Visibility may be misleading, but the general word from 3rd party plugin developers is seemingly not. DP, if regarded at all, is usually at the bottom of the heap in terms of support. Not a good sign.

Though I have no concrete numbers, and don't pretend to speak with any authority, I at least see a trend away from DP in my neck of the woods. With few exceptions, the young composers I have met in this town are using Logic, Live and Cubase.

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:20 pm

PrimeMover wrote:Not sure, in my experience, I've seen it quite a lot. At Oberlin Conservatory, where I went to school, the electronic music department was using it about 50/50 beside Pro Tools, and it was the first program taught to first years. Also, at the local Army base in my home town, their studio (and remember, this is funded by the DoD) is entirely Digital Performer... no Logic or Pro Tools in sight.

Obviously, this experience is fairly limited, but just from word of mouth, DP5 seems to get just as much attention as Logic, and maybe even as much as Pro Tools (partially because people are just plain tired of talking about Pro Tools). Whether or not this reflects on the user base, I have yet to see.

I see. I studied at Berklee College of Music, and, unless they've changed the student's apps in the past few years, they taught Film Scoring with DP. Well, it was Performer back then. In the Leraning Center they had Vision and Performer too. Only the Music Editing classes were taught on PT.
So, unless they've changed apps (hope they haven't replaced DP for Logic), they have a lot of graduates comming out to the world and using DP for Film/composing work.

Having said that, here in Mexico, in the music-writing world, it is 65% using PCs (Nuendo, Cubase, etc). For the remaining 35%, most people I know use Logic, Cubase or PT on a Mac. From all music colleagues, i just know of 2 people who use DP:

I, and one of my best friends.
He wanted to get Logic, but I taught him into DP. He wanted to copy it from me, but I made him BUY it from MOTU.

Not many users here...

Well, their loss.

And, as Frodo mentioned, it would be imposible to make a certain assesment. Piracy in Mexico is every-day's bread. So any marketing research about this, would most likely throw unreliable numbers anyway.

Timeline · Post by **Timeline** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:30 pm

A local college near me had a teacher that taught DP but he died. They don't plan to replace him. I asked.

blue · Post by **blue** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:37 pm

FMiguelez wrote:I see. I studied at Berklee College of Music, and, unless they've changed the student's apps in the past few years, they taught Film Scoring with DP.••¦So, unless they've changed apps (hope they haven't replaced DP for Logic), they have a lot of graduates comming out to the world and using DP for Film/composing work.

In the last 3 years I've met about 10 people who have recently come to LA from Berklee. 2 of them use DP, the rest Logic. Not all of them majored in film scoring, but they all are budding film composers.

FMiguelez · Post by **FMiguelez** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:38 pm

.

I was just thinking:
Would anyone here have any decent idea of what MOTU's finances are like now?
I mean, they are ok, right? Is there any indication they are loosing money because of DP, or any indications that DP is starting to be a burden for them?
Will they be able to keep up with the cut-throat competition in the DAW world? Do they have enough resources for R&D, so they not only keep up, but stay ahead of the competition??

I knock on wood, and the very thought of them dropping DP would be terrifying... at least for me.

Too much cheap speculation on my part (sorry

), but I wouldn't ever want to think of having to get a new DAW and learn how to use it. I'd certainly miss all DP's wonderful features!!

Nah, I really hope DP lasts for a long long time, and that it just becomes much better. Hey, all MOTU needs to do is read and implement those 14+ pages of bright ideas in the DP wish-list thread. Well, that, AND implement the marketing ideas you guys have been writing about.