HOW CAN I AVOID PRO TOOLS?

zed · Post by **zed** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:18 am

pcm wrote:No it's a dp thing. These same projects will open in Final Cut Pro, no problem. With dp, it either works, or it crashes in the process.

Hmmmmm. Okay.

Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on Digidesign... BUT I'm still suspicious!

Spent plenty of time
in the ProTools California
I almost lost my hair
trying to do MIDI there

OldTimey · Post by **OldTimey** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:22 am

gearboy wrote:
zed wrote:Last thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the DAW I used before
'Relax,' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can import any time you like,
But you can never leave!

Welcome to the ProTools California
Such an ugly place!
What a mighty waste!

Many a dongle in the Pro Tools California
MBox 003R
Can't edit in the car.

Anytime of year,
You won't find Pro Tools here...

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:58 am

I don't know what PT market share is but anectdotal evidence aside, it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to be 100% of "pro studios." Here are some random points I'd make:

1. Define "pro studio." If you mean any studio that is actively bringing in income for the owner of said studio, then there are many, many studios I can think of that are NOT using Pro Tools.

2. If you mean "pro studio" as in they lease over a certain amount of commercial space, have a reception area with potted plants and leather sofas and a receptionist and staffers... well could be higher. Funny thing is Sony just closed doors on their "pro" mastering facility. Smaller, boutique studios are going to be the wave of the future, if it isn't already the present. Seems like the only attraction of bigger "pro" studios (agreeing we're not defining pro simply as "money-making" which is what it REALLY means) will be large rooms to record big ensembles, etc. Most anything else the boutiques can handle more economically.

3. Some of this "market-share" I would call "dormant" Pro Tools users... that is people who run a commercial operation who bought a copy so when some yuckster comes in off the street and says that line that he's been practicing to say with authority... "So, do you have Pro Tools?", they can say "Yes" and then get on with the more important job of just recording the project, whatever tool they end up using.

4. Don't even include LE. That just gets silly. Every time I read some local yokel recording studio ad and they're touting ProTools, it always ends up being LE, and then I laugh. I'll grant you a TDM system, by virtue of it's hardware DSP, has advantages over DP... but you can't compare a PT LE system on 001, 002 interface, etc. with a well appointed DP system running MOTU HD192s, etc. So I don't count LE systems... because they also include all those kids the music stores con into thinking they're going to buy a mBox and $99 microphone and set the world afire because they have "Pro Tools" and can now record their own CD. Yeeesh.

I think though that yes, if you are going to hang your shingle out and bill yourself as full-tiime commercial recording studio (with the appropriate square footage and capabilities to back that up), then there is a very strong argument to buy Pro Tools -- TDM if you plan on USING it effectively, and LE if you just want to name-drop. Either way, it's easier than trying to educate potential clients, for whom "Do you have Pro Tools?" is one of the few allegedly "intelligent" questions about your studio their friends have told them they should ask.

tripit@earthlink.net · Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:59 pm

James Steele wrote: 4. Don't even include LE. That just gets silly. Every time I read some local yokel recording studio ad and they're touting ProTools, it always ends up being LE, and then I laugh. I'll grant you a TDM system, by virtue of it's hardware DSP, has advantages over DP... but you can't compare a PT LE system on 001, 002 interface, etc. with a well appointed DP system running MOTU HD192s, etc. So I don't count LE systems... because they also include all those kids the music stores con into thinking they're going to buy a mBox and $99 microphone and set the world afire because they have "Pro Tools" and can now record their own CD. Yeeesh.

I agree. The real major advantage to PT is TDM. The other advantage would be a matter of prefering the editing flow. I like to edit audio in PT over DP. But, when it comes to MIDI, DP has it hands down over every other DAW. If you work with a lot of MIDI, PT is horrible.

bongo_x · Post by **bongo_x** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:48 pm

tripit@earthlink.net wrote:
James Steele wrote: 4. Don't even include LE. That just gets silly. Every time I read some local yokel recording studio ad and they're touting ProTools, it always ends up being LE, and then I laugh. I'll grant you a TDM system, by virtue of it's hardware DSP, has advantages over DP... but you can't compare a PT LE system on 001, 002 interface, etc. with a well appointed DP system running MOTU HD192s, etc. So I don't count LE systems... because they also include all those kids the music stores con into thinking they're going to buy a mBox and $99 microphone and set the world afire because they have "Pro Tools" and can now record their own CD. Yeeesh.
I agree. The real major advantage to PT is TDM. The other advantage would be a matter of prefering the editing flow. I like to edit audio in PT over DP. But, when it comes to MIDI, DP has it hands down over every other DAW. If you work with a lot of MIDI, PT is horrible.

I don't care anything about tdm, but I agree that the audio editing is THE strong point of PT. I never upgraded my personal system after the "mix" system. I "downgraded" some of my tdm plugs to native. I just got an 002 and use le. I'm actually very curious to see where they go since I gotta think pretty soon no one is gonna care much about tdm.

anyone wanna buy a PT mix system?

bb

zandurian · Post by **zandurian** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:03 pm

gearboy wrote:
zed wrote:Last thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the DAW I used before
'Relax,' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can import any time you like,
But you can never leave!

Welcome to the ProTools California
Such an ugly place!
What a mighty waste!

Many a dongle in the Pro Tools California
MBox 003R
Can't edit in the car.

you guys are too funny. Now my whole family is having a blast singing anti pro tools lyrics

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:25 pm

Question:

If PT were priced comparably to DP, would it be nearly as bad or does its current pricing just make it worse?

zaster · Post by **zaster** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:39 pm

I would probably have used PT at least 90% of the time (this may have changed recently since I've started doing a lot of MIDI) if I didn't have to have the gosh darn hardware hooked up. I actually use a Digi 002 as my main interface, but I rarely use PT cause when I'm on an 8 hour flight and I can't access my work I feel seriously pissed off! But I would probably never have developed any DP skills if this hadn't been the case, and PT would be my main DAW. As it is, I only use PT when working in conjuction with a studio-recorded situation, to track my vocals at home, say, or edit guitar solos, etc. For writing, when I don't have any PT collaborators lined up yet, I stick to DP. Call me a libertarian, but to me it's a no-brainer that on your own laptop you should be able to just plug in your headphones and listen to your ••••! (Pardon my French!)

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:20 am

"HOW CAN I AVOID MONKEY STOOLS?", the thread asks.

Everyone around here knows that some things simply can't be avoided, poo ammo being one of them.

n8tron · Post by **n8tron** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:07 am

James Steele wrote: 4. Don't even include LE. That just gets silly. Every time I read some local yokel recording studio ad and they're touting ProTools, it always ends up being LE, and then I laugh. I'll grant you a TDM system, by virtue of it's hardware DSP, has advantages over DP... but you can't compare a PT LE system on 001, 002 interface, etc. with a well appointed DP system running MOTU HD192s, etc. So I don't count LE systems... because they also include all those kids the music stores con into thinking they're going to buy a mBox and $99 microphone and set the world afire because they have "Pro Tools" and can now record their own CD. Yeeesh.

this is whats silly. I guess we can discount all of the DP rigs running off an 828, or m-audio hardware.

a sale is a sale, someone can use their 002 as a doorstop, or their DP cd as a coaster.

This also challenges what Pro means, and also where this software is used. In my book pro is someone making money off what they do, and plenty of people are using 002s and 828s and getting paid. Also are we only talking about recording studios? What about most of the people who use dp, composers? Or electronic musicians who hardly even need an audio interface because they rarely record anything?

Also, even though we don't know the numbers, sales are actual evidence of market share. It sounds like your trying to guess how many people use PT or DP for making decent music, which is a waste of time.

gearboy · Post by **gearboy** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:26 am

All I know is a friend of mine used Pro Tools LE to record his band. They did track the drums to Pro Tools HD, because, well, that's what a friend's real studio here in Philly uses. Anyway, Digi 002, API 512 and Sytek MPX-4Aii mic preamps, an old MCI console's preamps for the drums... the record sounds freaking awesome. Then they licensed a song from it for season #2 or #3 of the OC, and another song from the record is in a major motion picture film movie. So it is possible to do professional recordings with Pro Tools LE. I personally use a Black Lion modded 828mk2 and it sounds amazing. I can't wait to start recording my friends' next record from the ground up with my setup, and some borrowed API preamps. It'll sound killer.

So, define professional? Kelley Stoltz is making waves and touring the country and his songs are in commercials in Europe and he records everything in the living room of his SF apartment to a Tascam 388:

And it fits his music well and sounds great.

My main beef with Pro Tools is the dongle thing. If I was going to get into an LE rig, I would want one that would enable to have a setup like I do now with my BLA 828mk2 and DP for home on the G5, that same system portable with my PowerBook, but also a system that will run off of the computer's internal sound card, like DP, because I like to edit, compose, etc at my girlfriend's house, etc.

I guess I have a loyalty to DP, since I have been a MOTU user since 1995 when I discovered Performer at college. Aside from the dongle thing, I have no problem with PT, but I have a lot of money invested in a DP rig and unless MOTU goes out of business or drops the ball something fierce, I'll continue to use DP. If I have a job that will pays well (I freelance with audio) and requires me to use Pro Tools and will pay for a Digi 003 rig (which I will clock to my BLA 828mk2), then I'll learn Pro Tools and use that as well.

But until then I'm strictly using DP and Live.

Jeff

n8tron · Post by **n8tron** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:37 am

yeah,

sufjan steven's records are made mostly recorded on an 8-track roland digital recorder, don't know exactly which model, and I think they sound amazing. It inspires me to be a better engineer with what I have, rather than worrying about buying ridiculously expensive gear.

gearboy · Post by **gearboy** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:44 am

n8tron wrote:yeah,

sufjan steven's records are made mostly recorded on an 8-track roland digital recorder, don't know exactly which model, and I think they sound amazing. It inspires me to be a better engineer with what I have, rather than worrying about buying ridiculously expensive gear.

All of his records sound amazing. That guy is the real deal, incredible live, and I got into him during the Seven Swans/Michigan records. Illinois is a masterpiece.

I believe that he records to either a Roland VS880EX or a V-Expanded VS-880 with the effects cards. The sound of the box does not get in the way of how great his music is, not does it take away. I believe that they edit... in... Pro Tools.

jlaudon · Post by **jlaudon** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:48 am

And one of the most basic things about PT LE is, wow, 32 tracks... and upgrade to 48 for way more than what 16 tracks is worth.

gearboy · Post by **gearboy** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:36 am

jlaudon wrote:And one of the most basic things about PT LE is, wow, 32 tracks... and upgrade to 48 for way more than what 16 tracks is worth.

Yeah, you're right, I have an issue with that. I could have NEVER done the film that I am currently finishing up with 32 tracks. Or 48. I had over 300 tracks of audio, easily. (My last count was 270 weeks ago.)

But, for working on a record, most bands can get by with 32 tracks. I could. It will force you to make decisions. Sure, I would love to have unlimited tracks, and I do, and I am used to it. But the only time that I have used over 48 tracks was on this film, and to be honest, most of the stuff that I record with bands could be done at under 32, or made to fit in 32 tracks. But why I am defending this I'll never know.

Like I said, I'm a MOTU/Digital Performer kind of guy. I like my setup. I would rather sink money into new and exciting mic preamps, mics, monitors, etc these days, ya know, real gear that you can hold, than upgrade the stuff that's under the hood of my G5 or Powerbook. It works, I'm parked at 10.4.7, I can make music as long as the computers work, etc. However, if someone wants to pay me $10K+ to work on the sound of an indie film, ADR, etc and for some reason it has to be done in Pro Tools, I would sink some of that money into Pro Tools, or work something out with payment and split it etc, than turn down that work. I get hired due to my skills, not because I use DP. And my skills translate to any tool that I use, provided that I know how to use them.

Jeff