DP 5.12 and Mac OSX 10.4.10

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:37 am

Shooshie wrote:Wow! What a great thread!
Actual, useful, important, pertinent information!

I can claim some credit here; I kept my trap shut.

Shooshie wrote:Thanks for the great info folks. Keep up the good work!
Shooshie

I'm sold. I'll keep the cakehole closed.

FWIMBW to some:
Defragging: I've always copied partitions instead.
Tech Tools: Having heard numerous horror stories over the years, I'm one of many who'd take quite some convincing of the "need" to install it.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:38 am

Could it be that some people have the trial version and some people have the full version of MS Office? The Apple Store freely sold me an un-updatable academic version which I run on my laptop. I do not have the MS daemon running in the background, but it appears that those who have the full version may indeed be have the daemon.

I'd be curious to know which version people have and which of those versions are the ones with the daemon.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:16 am

Buffet Buster wrote:I do not have the MS daemon running in the background, but it appears that those who have the full version may indeed be have the daemon.
I'd be curious to know which version people have and which of those versions are the ones with the daemon.

A Microsoft Demon, eh? Makes sense.

You're up late, Fwoggy.
Monkey's thoughts are with you.

PS: When you're done with them, don't forget to mail them back, eh?
Thanks bud.
Oh, and we'd better do it "snail-mail" this time; tracking a consciousness in the ether is not something I look forward to attempting.

PPS: I just realised that you're probably up early, as opposed to "late".

PPPS: I'll shut up now so the useful info can flow freely once again...

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:57 am

monkey man wrote:PPS: I just realised that you're probably up early, as opposed to "late".

Yes- it's close to 9 AM Monday here-- 2 AM Tuesday in Melbourne.

Thoughts are en route to Austrlia from USA via FedEx Ground!

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:06 am

Frodo wrote:
monkey man wrote:PPS: I just realised that you're probably up early, as opposed to "late".
Yes- it's close to 9 AM Monday here-- 2 AM Tuesday in Melbourne.
Thoughts are en route to Austrlia from USA via FedEx Ground!

Aah, Ground Nogg day is a comin'. Yay!
Glad you got that "l" in there, Flipster; that ought to prevent its landing up in Austria.

I said I'd shut up, but your kind gesture deserved thanks.

Oh yeah, thank you Fwoggy!

syntonica · Post by **syntonica** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:35 pm

Did somebody say defrag? It shouldn't be necessary. Since 10.3.something, basic defrag is built into the Mac OS. I wouldn't recommend it, just from all the PC horror stories, a.k.a. I just defragged my drive and now all my data is gone!

Just use a particular drive or partition for your project workspace. After you are done, back it up (lots!) and then wipe the partition. All fragmentation gone.

We all have backups, right?

If so, we don't need to depend on the utilities.

All-in-all, DP 5.12 + 10.4.10 seems as explodey as usual.

101 · Post by **101** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:22 pm

Frodo wrote:Could it be that some people have the trial version and some people have the full version of MS Office? The Apple Store freely sold me an un-updatable academic version which I run on my laptop. I do not have the MS daemon running in the background, but it appears that those who have the full version may indeed be have the daemon.

I'd be curious to know which version people have and which of those versions are the ones with the daemon.

To disable the MS Daemon in the full version , disable Auto Update.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:41 pm

101 wrote: To disable the MS Daemon in the full version , disable Auto Update.

I'm so glad my version is not updatable.

Thanks 101.

sdemott · Post by **sdemott** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:50 pm

101 wrote:
Frodo wrote:Could it be that some people have the trial version and some people have the full version of MS Office? The Apple Store freely sold me an un-updatable academic version which I run on my laptop. I do not have the MS daemon running in the background, but it appears that those who have the full version may indeed be have the daemon.

I'd be curious to know which version people have and which of those versions are the ones with the daemon.
To disable the MS Daemon in the full version , disable Auto Update.

That's only 1 aspect. You also need to *not* run Entourage (Entourage on launch reinstalls the daemon). You also need to turn off all calendar notifications (another task the Office Daemon performs)...plus a myriad of other tasks that rely on this app.

It's really a lot more complicated than just disable this or that because it is an app that is persistent in that it is auto installed when an MS app detects it's not there.

I remember countless hours on the phone with the MS Office Mac team trying to narrow down just exactly what this little app did and why it always seemed to cause so many issues on so many systems. It got to the point where anytime a machine pinwheeled we would just SSH into the box and issue a kill command for the daemon process. In a business of about 400 Macs, the percentage of daily annoyances related to MS Office was in the 70-80% range.

Also - all you Mactel users should keep in mind this persistent app is PowerPC only! It keeps Rosetta loaded and adds yet another hit to the CPU.

If I remember correctly, I think any version of MS Office that has Entourage installs the Office Daemon. I would check it for sure, but I really don't want to install Office 2004 again. I've been very happy with NeoOffice and have had far fewer problems since dumping MS (it's like ending a bad relationship - you really don't miss her and feel pretty good with your new found freedom).

sdemott · Post by **sdemott** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:13 pm

syntonica wrote:Did somebody say defrag? It shouldn't be necessary. Since 10.3.something, basic defrag is built into the Mac OS. I wouldn't recommend it, just from all the PC horror stories, a.k.a. I just defragged my drive and now all my data is gone!

Just use a particular drive or partition for your project workspace. After you are done, back it up (lots!) and then wipe the partition. All fragmentation gone.

We all have backups, right?

If so, we don't need to depend on the utilities.

All-in-all, DP 5.12 + 10.4.10 seems as explodey as usual.

Just a point of clarification: There is a difference between basic defragmentation and disk optimization. To defrag is to simply make sure each file is stored contiguously leaving all unused space appendable at the end of the file structure. Optimization is the act of defragging with regards to platter speeds/access time and the activity level of the file. Putting the larger, most accessed files at the fastest parts of the platter, while moving the smalled less frequently used files where the head has to move farther.

And while there is a built in defrag function in OS X, it is quite specific in how it works and is pretty much useless on large files. But, Apple uses 2 technologies, Hot-File-Adaptive-Clustering & Delayed Allocation, to keep the fragmentation level low which are relevant for larger files.

Disk Optimization through defraging a drive isn't really something that is needed in this day and age of faster drives, better caching and basic HFS+ methodology (HFS+ reuses space on hard disk as a last resort, first attempting to use a new contiguous block. Apple did think of these things, they just needed the HW to catch up). In fact, performing intensive read/write operations such as defragging/optimizing will, without doubt, shorten the life of your drive.

My experience has shown that HDs that are actively defragged & optimized are the ones that exhibit shorter life spans. I, personally, do not defrag/optimize my disks. I do, however, backup often.

FWIW, Apple discourages the act of defragging/optimizing HFS+ volumes.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:07 pm

I find it hard to believe what you are saying until you can tell me something I can actually see.

Thus far, when I turn on activity monitor, I see nothing on from Office. tell me exactly what I should see from Office that is on. If I can see it, I will believe you and thank you very much. If I cannot see it, then it is not there and therefore, you must be incorrect..simple.
SO far, the 2 things you have said only appear when Office is on, and go away when I quite Office

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:59 pm

toodamnhip wrote:I find it hard to believe what you are saying until you can tell me something I can actually see.

"Seeing is Believing" died with the invention of Photshop.

sdemott · Post by **sdemott** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:30 am

toodamnhip wrote:I find it hard to believe what you are saying until you can tell me something I can actually see.

Thus far, when I turn on activity monitor, I see nothing on from Office. tell me exactly what I should see from Office that is on. If I can see it, I will believe you and thank you very much. If I cannot see it, then it is not there and therefore, you must be incorrect..simple.
SO far, the 2 things you have said only appear when Office is on, and go away when I quite Office

I don't remember what the actual name of the process is but it has "Database Daemon" in the name and its either 'Office' "Microsoft' or 'Entourage' in their also. I stopped running MSO months ago because it was such a Cluster F&*^ of an app.

If you don't see that you must not have Entourage in your MSO package.

I'm not mistaken, you're just not running a full version of MSO. MSO was the bane of my existence when I managed a support department at an ad/marketing agency. It may be that unless you buy the "Pro" version you don't get all the features...which means no Exchange support, which is integral in a business environment.

Does no one have Entourage included in their MSO bundle? If you have Entourage, the database daemon is running in the background.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:27 am

sdemott wrote:
toodamnhip wrote:I find it hard to believe what you are saying until you can tell me something I can actually see.

Thus far, when I turn on activity monitor, I see nothing on from Office. tell me exactly what I should see from Office that is on. If I can see it, I will believe you and thank you very much. If I cannot see it, then it is not there and therefore, you must be incorrect..simple.
SO far, the 2 things you have said only appear when Office is on, and go away when I quite Office
I don't remember what the actual name of the process is but it has "Database Daemon" in the name and its either 'Office' "Microsoft' or 'Entourage' in their also. I stopped running MSO months ago because it was such a Cluster F&*^ of an app.

If you don't see that you must not have Entourage in your MSO package.

I'm not mistaken, you're just not running a full version of MSO. MSO was the bane of my existence when I managed a support department at an ad/marketing agency. It may be that unless you buy the "Pro" version you don't get all the features...which means no Exchange support, which is integral in a business environment.

Does no one have Entourage included in their MSO bundle? If you have Entourage, the database daemon is running in the background.

My version is Microsoft Office X. It has entourage in it. The files you mentioned come on when Office is ON, and go off when it is not in use...exactly as they should. Again, I am interested, but you will have to name something I can SEE that stays on, thusfar, I feel safe that nothign is harming my system. I dont know if Office X, WITH Entourage, is equivalent to a Pro edition.

sdemott · Post by **sdemott** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:10 am

toodamnhip wrote:
sdemott wrote:
toodamnhip wrote:I find it hard to believe what you are saying until you can tell me something I can actually see.

Thus far, when I turn on activity monitor, I see nothing on from Office. tell me exactly what I should see from Office that is on. If I can see it, I will believe you and thank you very much. If I cannot see it, then it is not there and therefore, you must be incorrect..simple.
SO far, the 2 things you have said only appear when Office is on, and go away when I quite Office
I don't remember what the actual name of the process is but it has "Database Daemon" in the name and its either 'Office' "Microsoft' or 'Entourage' in their also. I stopped running MSO months ago because it was such a Cluster F&*^ of an app.

If you don't see that you must not have Entourage in your MSO package.

I'm not mistaken, you're just not running a full version of MSO. MSO was the bane of my existence when I managed a support department at an ad/marketing agency. It may be that unless you buy the "Pro" version you don't get all the features...which means no Exchange support, which is integral in a business environment.

Does no one have Entourage included in their MSO bundle? If you have Entourage, the database daemon is running in the background.
My version is Microsoft Office X. It has entourage in it. The files you mentioned come on when Office is ON, and go off when it is not in use...exactly as they should. Again, I am interested, but you will have to name something I can SEE that stays on, thusfar, I feel safe that nothign is harming my system. I dont know if Office X, WITH Entourage, is equivalent to a Pro edition.

Here's an excerpt from one of the Microsoft help sites:

The Database Daemon is a little utility that handles all the interaction with the Microsoft Office Database. It is the Daemon that writes mail into the database, extracts information from it for display etc. Every time you tell Entourage (or one of the other Office applications) to do something with the data, it asks the Daemon to do it. The Daemon was introduced in Entourage vX as a major enhancement to the stability and security of the database.

The Daemon also keeps running after other office applications have been quit (if you have Notifications turned on in the Entourage preferences) so that you can get alerts from calendar events.

What they do not mention is that any commenting operations or Flag for Follow-up in Word will also trigger the daemon as well as certain data acquisition methods in excel sheets. So, even with notifications turned off - it can become active (typical MS leaving out a few 'minor' details).

Here's an excerpt from another MS help site

1) What is a daemon?

A daemon is a networking program that performs a housekeeping or maintenance utility function without being called by the user. A daemon sits in the background and is activated only when needed, for example, to correct an error from which another program cannot recover.

2) What is the Microsoft Database Daemon?

The Microsoft Database Daemon allows the Reminder to work even if all MS applications are closed. The daemon is actually used all the time to access the Database. Even Word uses it. This is why you need to Quit Notifications and/or the Microsoft Database daemon when you install MS updates. It could also interfere with backup applications.

3) Should the database daemon show up in my startup items?

If you have Notifications enabled you will see the database daemon in your startup items. You should only have one. If you have more than one, delete them all and let one of the Office applications create a new one. Multiple daemons in startup can cause crashes.

4) Does switching back and forth between Entourage X and Entourage 2004 create multiple daemons?

Yes, you should quit Notifications and/or the daemon before launching another version.

5) I recognize that Microsoft Database daemon is used by Office Notifications. What do Word, Excel and PowerPoint use it for, if anything?

Word, Excel, and PowerPoint have features that can trigger Office notifications. The "flag for follow-up" button on Word's standard toolbar is one such feature. If you don't use these, you can turn Notifications off and delete it from the login items.

New to Entourage 2004: Spotlight will index any cache files the Entourage daemon has created even if the daemon is not launched, but no new cache files will be created until the daemon is launched again. If the Microsoft Sync daemon never launches, there's no way for Entourage to sync data with Sync Services.

Now, if you are running Office X & you're not seeing this in the activity monitor - it's failing to load for one reason or another...Or maybe you've just never used a function that requires the daemon.