Volume surge w/DP, Reason & GPO

ConureDude · Post by **ConureDude** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:49 pm

Hi everyone,

When running DP, Reason & GPO, I frequently get a weird volume surge (usually in Reason) that lasts for a measure or two. Then the volume drops back down to normal. Oddly, I don't have very many CC7 messages in my sequence, so I'm not sure what's causing it. Any advice?

I'm new to these forums; although I've searched for an answer to my question, if you've addressed it previously, kindly point me toward the right board. Thanks!

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:02 pm

This has been mentioned before. There were at one time MIDI bursts-- a glob of MIDI notes that would sound all at once like a big sneeze.

But lately, on both PPC and Intel, I encounter radical level gain for a measure or more without knowing why. This is something I've been tracking down for a while and have failed to suss out.

fwiw-- you are not alone... I just wish I had a solution for you. Updating drivers, swapping card slots, replacing cables, dumping prefs, re-scanning Audio Units-- no improvement (yet).

btw-- I don't use GPO or Reason, so I get the impression that there's something odd going on at the OS level since I've not been able to nail it down to one particular plugin or another. It happens with all my Audio Unit plugins.

rikp · Post by **rikp** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:14 am

Same problem for me. It is very random and does not seem to be any one AU plugin. For the life of me I can't figure this out! It sure makes recording interesting!

Peace

rikp

Dubnick · Post by **Dubnick** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:17 am

Don't know if this is at all related to the problem you all are having cause I haven't had it happen to me, but I know that my Saffire interface some times takes a second to adjust in volume when I turn it down and I believe it has something to do with Focusrite's Cue Mix equivalent, and/or the Apple FirewireAudio driver that has been problematic for a lot of interfaces, including the Saffire (you can find info on the problems by searching the Focusrite support database - they give instructions on how to get the latest beta driver from Apple). Anyhow, good luck - hope it's not a DP problem, cause we all know how long it takes MOTU to acknowledge issues, let alone fix them

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:28 am

I'm running a 2408mk3 with a PCI-424-- latest drivers.

Not sure what it is, really. I've got an engineer friend who has never once experienced this problem, but he only does audio and audio plugins, but NEVER uses virtual instruments.

I currently have no use for the bundled MAS virtual instruments, but even MachFive and Altiverb under MAS experience these volume increases. I just can't tell if it's a residual symptom or a culprit in the larger AU/Core Audio equation.

I am pretty sure it is related to virtual instruments-- only because it only happens with VIs are loaded and running, and it doesn't matter how large or small the project is or what VI is being used.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:55 am

Whatever the heck it is, I've been telling MOTU about things like MIDI bursts and volume changes and sudden dropouts since 2003, and they have yet to say "yes, we've heard about that and are working on it." They always start with something like "have you trashed your preferences?" or rebooted, or some of the other standard stuff. You will recall that two years ago, this is what caused me to put together the database of our problems with DP. This and the hungover notes and other strange anomalies. I was hoping to trap some game, and I did trap some game, but not for long. The new versions of everything came out. We thought things were fixed for a while, but either they were not fixed, or they've gotten broken again.

What's so frustrating is that these are totally unacceptable problems which can turn even the best DAW into a useless piece of junk. If you cannot control what comes out of your DAW, then you're wasting your time even trying to use it. Now THAT'S a bummer.

We've been talking about these problems for a long time. I've reported many of them to MOTU on many occasions. I know that lots of you have probably done your duty and called them as well. Or written letters. And they have yet to absorb this into their body of known bugs. Has anyone at MOTU ever told anyone here that they've heard of this problem before? I'm really curious; has anyone ever heard that from a MOTU employee? I'd really like to hear this from Les Quindipan or Jim Cooper or Magic Dave -- people I have known and trusted for many years. I'd like to know that they are sniffing it out. But it almost seems as though they are unaware of it.

I do not mean to get down on MOTU. Honestly. Please don't use my post as an excuse to dogpile on MOTU and start a thread of your frustrations. I'm talking about the particular subject at hand: these strange dropouts, boosts, stuck notes, and other things that NEVER happened before OSX. These are the things that make me sometimes feel like giving up before I start. I don't give up, of course. And I will not. And for the record, I still support MOTU, and I support their employees and all that they do. I'm just mystified by this one thing. Why do all the people at MOTU seem completely unfazed by this set of problems that cropped up in version 4.0 and have been with us to some extent ever since?

Shooshie

Dubnick · Post by **Dubnick** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:33 am

Unfortunately, as someone who uses Pro Tools, Digital Performer and Logic, I can say that the choice seems to be either:

1. Pro Tools - a native system with great tech support and great UI but lacking in some of the more important beyond basic features of it's competition and far more inefficient when it comes to CPU usage (Pro Tools LE) and hardware limitations.

2. Digital Performer - a program that offers a very intuitive alternative to Pro Tools with none of the limitations, but with very poor tech support and long term bugs that may never be addressed. Also, and this is subjective of course, but I find the plug-in selection when it comes to stock compressors is pretty piss poor and I don't find the VI's particularly useful - I wish that energy had been directed towards fixing stuff.

3. Logic Pro - great sounding, incredibly DSP efficient, but lacking some basic features that make dealing with audio a pain (no track to track routing, no playlist/take switching and most importantly, no Beat Detective equivalent). Also, the user interface in not very intuitive at all to users coming from the audio world, whether from PT or analog. Also, it has it's own long term bugs, though most are virtually inconsequential or so rarely pop up that it doesn't inhibit work. While not anywhere near Digidesign when it comes to proactive tech support, they are no MOTU either - things may take an extrodinarly long time to get updated, but bugs are addressed and at least they offer a means to supply them with bug info.

I can get my work done in all three programs, but it would be nice to be able to drop two of them and know I want be left wishing I had all three. What's weird for me is that I am starting to look at Sonar 6 with a jealous eye, which I never thought I'd say. I'm actually very curious as to how Reaper's will effect the native Mac OS market when the Mac version is complete. The feature set at least matches Sonar 6 (including 64-bit mix engine) and Digital Performer's and seems to cover all the bases that make Pro Tool LE crucial to have, even if you don't do most of your tracking or mixing in it (including it's own Beat Detective equivalent, referred to as Tranny Ops, which is pretty funny). It's gonna be weird if all these DAW's are trumped by one that is either $40 or $200, depending on the use of the product and the customer's honesty. Time will tell - hope they all get their crap together.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:43 am

Yeah, Shooshie. It's hard to believe that after all this time that users are the only ones who are experiencing this issue. What's most bothersome is that I've totally failed to gather enough information to even make a more detailed report to MOTU about it.

Just yesterday, my rep suggested something new to me that I've not yet considered: He said that other DAWs on the Mac pre-render VIs and fx plugins on the fly for playback (if I have his info correct). He says that DP will pre-render fx plugins but NOT virtual instruments.

I've not wanted to this issue to point so directly to DP, but because it appears NOT to be related to a particular VI or so exclusively (afaik) related to MAS and AU, and since it's not exclusive to which audio interface is being used (slot-based or FW or make/model) it must be the manner in which DP is delivering audio to the audio card or interface itself-- whatever that may be.

I've dinked with Prime Seconds, Work Quanta, and Max Work Percent. There so little info on these features, and while some adjustments made on my G5 seemed to improve some playback issues, these features have done nothiing to avert the audio bursts.

I've sent projects to MOTU before, but I never hear back one way or the other-- "it works fine on this end" or "we have located a problem and will get back to you". I just can't imagine how they test users' projects on their systems without also having the third-party hardware and software to go along with it.

No, this is not a bash at all-- just an effort to get to the bottom of things. I've tried everything I know to troubleshoot this and am at a total loss.

Perhaps MOTU is also at a loss with this as well, but I would hope that users ARE reporting the issue and that such reports would raise some sort of red flag at Ground Zero (ie: MOTU HQ).

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:46 am

Dubnick wrote:... What's weird for me is that I am starting to look at Sonar 6 with a jealous eye, which I never thought I'd say.

Sonar, eh? This is serious thought in motion here. You'd also be talking PC and not Mac. That presents a whole new kettle of fish.

Dubnick · Post by **Dubnick** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:05 am

Frodo wrote:
Dubnick wrote:... What's weird for me is that I am starting to look at Sonar 6 with a jealous eye, which I never thought I'd say.
Sonar, eh? This is serious thought in motion here. You'd also be talking PC and not Mac. That presents a whole new kettle of fish.

I'm waiting for the finished version of Reaper for Mac to be done before I start seriously consider even thinking seriously about Sonar 6 (hopefully by the time Reaper is done the new Logic will be out and either be more of the same or a re-worked PT killer, which would be amazing, but I won't hold my breath), but the fact that the thought is in my head, as a long time Mac user, is a bit scary. I mean, here's a sad fact - when I daydream about getting an Intel Mac, it's not about the added Mac horsepower - for the most part, my Dual G5 is more than enough - but the possibility of trying Sonar 6 and being able to watch movies streaming on Netflix (at the moment you can only do this on a Windows machine, but oddly enough, it will be a feature available to Mac users when the new Microsoft format players, which will be useable on Macs, are launched). Anyhow, I'm getting off topic here - sorry to have gotten off track. I just want this whole iPhone phase to over with at Apple so they can fix the stupid FWAudioDriver issues and finally update Logic Pro - it's just starting to scare me how little attention they are giving thier long term core users in pro audio.

ConureDude · Post by **ConureDude** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:11 am

Dubnick wrote:the Apple FirewireAudio driver that has been problematic for a lot of interfaces

This is an interesting point. From my experience, the volume surges started back with DP 3.1 and Reason 2.5. One common element in my setups has been a Firewire interface (though different ones).

Guess I don't have anything original to say on that; it just gets me to thinking...

Dubnick · Post by **Dubnick** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:29 am

ConureDude wrote:
Dubnick wrote:the Apple FirewireAudio driver that has been problematic for a lot of interfaces

This is an interesting point. From my experience, the volume surges started back with DP 3.1 and Reason 2.5. One common element in my setups has been a Firewire interface (though different ones).

Guess I don't have anything original to say on that; it just gets me to thinking...

POST-POST EDIT:

I just saw that you are using a Firebox, and like I said, I saw that the Firebox was one of the interfaces that had been mentioned on the Apple Developer's site, but you should search that site and/or call PreSonus for yourself to make sure. Presonus has great Tech/Customer support and will answer any questions.

Well as someone whose downloaded the newer beta drivers myself, I can say that it can't hurt to try. You just have to sign up as a developer - the Focusrite support page has a link to the Apple Developer page and instructions on what to download and what to install. The last non-beta FWAudioDriver is at like 1.08 while the beta is a least up in the 2.x area, so apperantly they've been trying to troubleshoot the stuff for a while. I guess it doesn't effect all interfaces, or at least effect them all in the same way, but any interface drivers that in turn rely on Apple's FWAudioDrivers can be effected. I didn't notice any issues when I used my Digi 002R, even when using it for CoreAudio, but I was getting my FW connection knocked off and getting some weird CPU spikes when using Logic with my Saffire and when I wrote to Focusrite, they responded immediately with the info about the driver issues. I still have occasional wierdness, like the delay in the master volume's response on my Saffire and some other stuff, but none of the getting knocked offline junk. Worth a try I'd say - you could always contact the maker of your interface, send them the link to the Focusrite support page, describe your problem and see if they reccomend the same thing or not. I also did a search of that Developer's site about the FWAudioDriver and saw posts that mention the Firebox and some M-Audio interfaces as having the same issues with the Apple FWAudio Drivers, so who knows.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:55 am

Yes, there have been some concerns with various interfaces, but I'm not sure yet if all of the issues are inter-related.

One other thing to also try out is another DAW to see if the problem occurs outside of DP. That would take DP off the list of suspects. If the same interface problems occur, then it might be easier to compartmentalize the problems.

However-- if the only problem in question is this audio surge nightmare, and if this happens outside of DP, then we're talking about a possible AU/Core Audio malady.

With that said, it is possible that all of these issues are merely symptoms of some larger AU/Core malfunction, and RME, DP, and other hardware/software may just be innocent victims.

dmuckala · Post by **dmuckala** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:34 pm

hey guys, i was using DP with Reason 3.05 and noticed this as well the other day. I was on a Mac Pro with ProTools HD Core Audio. i.e., not firewire.
At first i thought it was my ears, or speakers, or something of that nature, but eventually realized that DP was swelling the volume up and down like it was on the high seas.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:39 pm

dmuckala wrote:hey guys, i was using DP with Reason 3.05 and noticed this as well the other day. I was on a Mac Pro with ProTools HD Core Audio. i.e., not firewire.
At first i thought it was my ears, or speakers, or something of that nature, but eventually realized that DP was swelling the volume up and down like it was on the high seas.

Ah-- we've got another witness!! Thanks for chiming in, dm.

I just scooted up to 5.12 and 10.4.10, so this is yet an issue I'm looking out for. If you run across any workarounds, please let us know.