5.1 Mixing Question

Hiddenstory · Post by **Hiddenstory** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:22 am

Hey Folks,

I'm new at scoring movies and have done two features in stereo.
Can any one give me any suggestions on learning 5.1
mixing? Any Motu tutorials etc.? I was in post at CCI in Burbank
and the engineer through my stereo mix through the THX
surround widgit and it really sucked. It was aversion therapy
and now know I have to present true surround mixes.

Also I have a pair of Mackie HR 824. Any suggestions on
What I should get for center and surround speakers?
I have some Tanoy 6.5 near fields that need to be amped.

Thanks in advance

Brian

XYZ · Post by **XYZ** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:03 pm

I would think HR 624s would be OK for the rear channels. hrs120 for a subwoofer, and maybe an hr626 for center. That would be a pretty cool system. Now I want one!

Hiddenstory · Post by **Hiddenstory** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:58 pm

Thanks,

Any tutorial suggestions for surround mixing in DP.

Brian

martian · Post by **martian** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:23 pm

shouldn't you have identical speakers across the front?

XYZ · Post by **XYZ** » Tue May 01, 2007 4:38 am

Not necessary. The left and right want to be the same, but the center channel can be different.

emulatorloo · Post by **emulatorloo** » Tue May 01, 2007 7:13 am

Hiddenstory wrote:Thanks,

Any tutorial suggestions for surround mixing in DP.

Brian

Not DP specific but useful nonetheless:

Setting up your studio for surround
http://www.tweakheadz.com/surround_sound_studio.htm

--

the "You Are Surrounded" nine- part series from soundonsound has a lot to chew on. Older article yes, still interesting -- link to part one.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Aug01/a ... sound1.asp

upper right hand corner of page has links to the other parts.

Part 9 has some Digital Performer specific stuff

---

XYZ · Post by **XYZ** » Tue May 01, 2007 9:44 am

I think there is also a calibration plug-in that comes with DP that allows sort of an automatic tuning of the surround system. May also be worth checking out.

KarlSutton · Post by **KarlSutton** » Tue May 01, 2007 11:13 am

I've been watching movies in 5.1 for a couple of years now & to be honest I never really notice any specific score elements happening in the surrounds. To me it usually sounds like stereo music in front with ambience & specific SFX in the rears. I think sometimes I notice reverb from the score in the back too.

braincloud · Post by **braincloud** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:33 pm

On the subject of speakers. I would not try and flush out your mackie speaker system as it will be very expensive. Try instead the $1000 setup from Blue Sky. I have mackie 626s and was really wanting to do a mackie suround setup, but the Blue Sky is incredible. IT translates very well to every system I have audioned mixes on.

As far as mixing music. It's easy to go overboard with a lot of panning initially. But Try and keep everything near the front with just a little bleed into the rear speakers. And if you want to move some textures around, make it subtle. I tend to move pads in a small circle or back and forth in the mid field. And then buss FX sends into the rears, particularly with percussion, which I then move around a bit.

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:55 pm

SLS HT 400's are working well for me. Passive matched 4 X speakers + active sub and dual woofer centre speaker. Planter ribbon tweeters give you astonishing transparency which is very important for film work.

Jerome Gilmer · Post by **Jerome Gilmer** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:46 pm

When I was confronted with a similar situation I found two things that helped. If you or a friend are a member of NARAS, there is a wonderful document on 5.1 calibration and mixing procedures in the producers and engineers section. Also, I had a pair of Genelec 1030's and a sub and wanted to stick with the same brand. Didn't have much cash and I called Genelec and asked for advice on the least costly way into 5.1. Turns out they had several 1030's that they had been using in trade shows that they wanted to get rid of. They weren't pretty but were guaranteed to meet the factory specs for a year. I saved quite a lot on the three, and have been very pleased with them. I would assume this tactic might work with other manufacturers as well. Worth a shot anyway.

Cheers!

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:16 am

If you have lived with your Mackies for some time, you will appreciate keeping the same brand of monitor all the way thorugh your surround rig....

Manufacturers try to keep the driver (HF) consistent which will mean consistency in your listening environment (and a shorter EAR learning curve)

While I commend the one gentlemen on his recommendation of the Blue SKy, the problem will be the time it takes for your ears to retrain your brain as to how the BS sounds...verses the Mackies.. I am going through something similar. I have mixed on Mackies for 10 years. Decided to change Monitors and now I am adjusting.... when you KNOW your monitors. Keep them and never sell them... They become like a Good wife. Predictable, Trustworthy....You can count on them to tell you the truth.

Finally... Your mixes probably suck due to your mixing environment. Most people say Buy this and Buy that, but if their listening environment sucks it's like putting Leather in a Yugo.... The environment is still garbage, all you did was pretty it up....

Lets FIX it....

626 in the center, 624's across the rears... Keep it consistent and be happy.

Cost isn't the issue, SOUND is. We all can go cheap. Consistency is the issue. Be certain what you hear in the mains is the same quality (tonality) of what you hear in the center and in the rears.....

I dare say, give me some Behringers and a good room, and I'll Out mix most guys around.....all hail Ed, Bart, Jon Gass, Jon Jascz and the crew...My Idols. (thats cocky, but trust me on that one... a Great room will make a novice sound good. LOL.) Why??? Because he will hear what he is doing better and make DIFFERENT decisions.....

Sorta like this saying, if you cant mix Live, get on a V-Dosc RIG and it will be proven. LOL.

SO work on your environment......

richardein · Post by **richardein** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:23 am

There are some books on surround sound, which I bought. I'll save you some $$$ and summarize:

1. They strongly recc'd all speakers be the same brand from the same company.

2. There are calibration routines that are very important. These have to do with, among other things, bass management. A web search will turn them up.

3. Most music mixing is done in a kind of enhanced stereo, with the rears used primarily for ambience and the subwoofer not at all, due to the way bass is handled by consumer surround systems.

Why music mixes are so conservative is a bit unclear to me. Yes, it is important to take into account that systems will inevitably be set up badly or half working, but even so... I've had the experience of listening to discrete quad recordings of orchestras, where you're literally put in the middle of the action. It truly is an amazing experience and not gimmicky in the slightest.

magicd · Post by **magicd** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:39 am

True story.

A friend of mine is an old school producer. I help him with his studio. His record label contracted him to do a surround remix of one his old bands first albums. So we built a surround monitoring system in his studio.

He has old EVs that he uses for stereo mixing. For the surround system he went with five KRK monitors and a matching sub.

My friend has a home theatre system upstairs and he's a Tivo addict. He's had the home theatre system (with 5.1 playback) for awhile.

We took the 5.1 mix from the studio and burned it on to a DVD with DVD Studio Pro.

The mix sounded awful on the home theatre system.
The back speakers were way different than the front. The rear left and right were reversed and one of those speakers was wired out of phase.

When we got the speakers wired correctly the mix sounded better, but the mismatch between front and rear was still a problem. My friend had put mix elements in back speakers only, and because of the speaker mismatches, those instruments were now out of balance.

To me this illustrates two points. You must have accurate monitors when you mix. If I was doing serious surround mixing I would absolutely have matched speakers and they would be placed according to spec.

But the other lesson I learned is that there's a reason that most commercial surround mixing is very conservative. A lot of 5.1 DVDs of live music are really "enhanced stereo" mixes. As soon as you isolate critical sounds into other than left and right speakers, you are putting a lot of faith in the playback system. Therefore mixing conservative in surround is much safer in terms of knowing that the mix will work on whatever systems are used for playback.

I was asked to teach a class recently on "non-traditional" surround mixing. I did use a 5.1 system for the class, but of course you can theoretically have as many channels as you feel like setting up. You can do some wild things with a multi-channel monitoring system, whether it's music or sound effects. But if the playback system doesn't match the original monitor system, as they say in Jersey, fuggedaboudit.

Oh yeah, and don't forget to check for phase coherence with the mono foldown button in the Master Fader.

Hope that helps!

Magic Dave

richardein · Post by **richardein** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:56 am

Magic Dave,

Yes, it pays to stay conservative. But oh boy, you should have heard the Rite of Spring in discrete quad...