Linux drivers

[James Steele]

Linux is still a fringe OS no matter how you want to spin it.

Silly me, who thought that "fringe" was a good word when talking about music and creativity.

Not necessarily. I dislike most music I hear that's described as "fringe." Most "experimental" and/or fringe music holds no appeal to me. Granted, I'm just probably not as intelligent as you are given my slovenly satisfaction with tradional western scales and harmony.

Let's all use the same instruments, play the same music, use the same DAWs, and conform as much as we can.

I really think you're oversimplyfing things. We don't all use the same DAWs... there are numerous choices out there. We don't all play the same instruments either or the same music. The discussion was about computer operating systems and honestly, the OS I am using is a non-issue as I find my musical ceativity bears no relation to this piece of software.

Even if it were true... if we used the same DAWs and the same instruments, that doesn't mean we could not achieve vastly different and creative results. If this were a forum for English speaking novelists/writers, wouldn't it seem odd to say "Oh fine... let's all use the same word processors, same alphabet, same rules of punctuation and grammar. Let's conform as much as we can?"

My creativity isn't held hostage to a particular OS and I don't look at my choice of Mac OSX as something that is limiting my creativity in any way. On the other hand, if you handed me full loaded Linux box, I'd be screwed because I'd have severely limited choices in audio software as compared to the dominant operating systems, and I'd probably be wasting my time complaining on a Mac-oriented board about the lack of a hardware driver for Linux or that a manufacturer isn't helping the Linux community support its hardware.

Non-conformity for non-conformity's sake is foolish-- except when non-conformity is "hip," but then it's conformity again.

[mess]

[Dockheas23]

and I'd probably be wasting my time complaining on a Mac-oriented board about the lack of a hardware driver for Linux or that a manufacturer isn't helping the Linux community support its hardware.

In fairness, this board is for "MOTU Theoretical Discussions, Gripes, Petitions & Off Topic". This thread is all four of these.

My creativity isn't held hostage to a particular OS and I don't look at my choice of Mac OSX as something that is limiting my creativity in any way. On the other hand, if you handed me full loaded Linux box, I'd be screwed because I'd have severely limited choices in audio software as compared to the dominant operating systems

Valid point. The operating system shouldn't really matter from the point of view of musical creativity. However, as someone who has an interest in computers as well as music, I find you can't do much 'poking around under the hood' in the mainstream OSes. I can see why that is not a requirement for most people.

The flip side of that is, if and when linux becomes a serious pro audio option, you will have a large group of people whose interest lies in the computer as well as music. I'm quite sure this would lead to better and faster development of drivers, effects, virtual instruments, etc... which should benefit people on all OSes.

Non-conformity for non-conformity's sake is foolish-- except when non-conformity is "hip," but then it's conformity again.

I think competition and choice is always a good thing. MOTU are restricting people's choices by not allowing linux drivers to be developed.

[amias]

Hello All .

What a dissapointing thread and james , i'm sure you are really cool
but you sound like a clueless fool , your statements about linux are utter lies . its better to say nothing if you don't know what you are talking about.

For motu to support linux all they have to do is provide the information then the drivers will be written and supported for
free by the linux kernel maintainers. Free legal assistance from the
OSDF/TPL is available to develop a framework for any NDA
requrements MOTU might have in releasing this information.
There is nothing to use and only customers to gain
see - http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers.html

Various developers have asked for this information and have been
told in no uncertain terms to f-off , which is not a professional way
to behave. Why is motu so horrible to linux users ?

This is real shame because it works nicely under windows and would be a very simple driver to write with the right information but only MOTU's brain dead attitude is holding this back.

I write for an international linux magazine and am in the process of
writing an article about using linux in the studio . All the other pro-audio kit i'm using works perfectly in linux apart from the MOTU
stuff . Sorry but i'm going to have to recommend people sell off
their MOTU kit and replace it with stuff from better behaved manufacturers.

Toodle-pip
Amas

[Rizla]

I saw an Ubuntu Linux box the other day and was completely blown away. Amazing what Linux has developed into. And all done by individuals around the world with little or no profit motive. It's the future of computing, for sure.

It's not as "fringe" as some may think. The main factor against being used by everybody is that it's open source, and no corporation can keep its stuff a secret and profit thereby. Of course, MOTU and others are going to hold on to their game as long as possible. It's a drag that they won't release drivers, but sooner or later (probably sooner) someone will come up with their own hardware and we'll have full-blown audio warez on linux boxes, for cheap, cheap, cheap. Linux can make all the millions of disgarded PC's useful again.

That said, I'll use what works for me now. It's not the gear, but what you make with it. Just because someone uses Linux or Mac to make their music doesn't mean shite to me.

[James Steele]

Hello All .

What a dissapointing thread and james , i'm sure you are really cool
but you sound like a clueless fool

Then we're even...

Sorry but i'm going to have to recommend people sell off
their MOTU kit and replace it with stuff from better behaved manufacturers.

Well, that ought to make the boys in Cambridge quake in their boots. The thought that they're going to lose their Linux base. I guess they'll have to do with the Windows and Mac OS market.

[Shooshie]

Wait a minute... you mean there's an OS underneath Digital Performer? I never even noticed! Wow! I've got OS X for the Mac. I've heard people speak of it in reverent tones, and here it is, right underneath Digital Performer! Cool!

Omigoodness... I just discovered another one underneath OS X! Stand back, you guys. You're not going to believe it. But there's a whole 'nother OS lurking under OS X, which is lurking under Digital Performer. It's called UNIX! Oh my!

Say, is that anything like that Linux thing that arth keeps talking about? Say, arth, let's take our OS's to the park and let them play frisbee together. I'll bet they'd like that! Besides, I don't ever really need my OS's. I just use Digital Performer. And Safari. Seems like I could let OS X and UNIX go sniffing around the park for fun things to do while I'm doing serious stuff in DP. You ought to try DP sometime. It's a groovy OS. Just does music, but hey, why use any other OS but DP?

Shooshie

[with tongue in cheek... another OS I use sometimes]

[carrythebanner]

First, I think that saying there's Linux support for "pretty much everything except MOTU" is a bit of an overstatement. That point aside, I think that Linux and other open source projects are great -- they provide custom solutions and offer greater flexibility to savvy users.

But, since these projects operate in a different fashion than products by proprietary/closed source manufacturers, you do make a choice -- if you don't want to play the game by their rules, you can't get upset when they don't play the game by your rules.

[amias]

Hello All .
What a dissapointing thread and james , i'm sure you are really cool
but you sound like a clueless fool

Then we're even...

sigh , whatever - i thought moderators where supposed to show maturity.

Sorry but i'm going to have to recommend people sell off
their MOTU kit and replace it with stuff from better behaved manufacturers.

Well, that ought to make the boys in Cambridge quake in their boots. The thought that they're going to lose their Linux base. I guess they'll have to do with the Windows and Mac OS market.

cool thanks for responding to the least important point in my post in the least constructive
way possible. What an excellent moderator you aren't.

I (and many others) would seriously like to know what motu's response to kroah's announcement was and why MOTU feel it unnecessary to prevent any open source
drivers from being written.

anyway , it looks like ive managed to find a m-audio midiman interface which will
do a better job , they also seem to seem to understand why its not a good idea
to insult customers.

Toodle-pip
Amias

[carrythebanner]

sigh , whatever - i thought moderators where supposed to show maturity.

To be honest, I thought he responded pretty fairly considering you called him a "clueless fool" in your first post ever on this board. Might you get a little testy if someone showed up on a Linux-centric board and called the moderator a fool for using Linux?

[OldTimey]

I think competition and choice is always a good thing. MOTU are restricting people's choices by not allowing linux drivers to be developed.

ehh...so what? MOTU is a private business (couldn't find it listed on any stock exchange) so they can do whatever they feel is in the company's best financial interests. The same way you don't invite bums off the street to eat @ your dinner table. The bums need food, and food would probably do them good, and maybe if they had a full tummy they would get the energy and confidence to find a paying job, and then maybe they can buy their own food. But you probably don't. You lock your doors at night, and eat with your family, in the privacy of your own home. It is in your family's best interests to do so.

I imagine it's fine to come on to this board and pose the question to MOTU, to release their API's to the open sorcerers but why don't you just petition them directly if you care so much?

BTW, RME supposedly has better A/D converters on their hardware, so why waste your time with MOTU gear, when a viable and possibly better alternative is sitting right under yer nose? If you need cheap, then go M-Audio...

-Personally, I'd rather MOTU make their gear Mac only, screw other OS support (and if MOTU released their API's, no matter how geeky linux users are, their support department will get more calls as a result), and focus on developing and optimizing DP for OSX, cause I am an OSX user. Is that gonna happen? probably not. Am i gonna raise a fuss? uhhhh no.

[James Steele]

sigh , whatever - i thought moderators where supposed to show maturity.

I'm sorry, I thought I did. You come in here to the board I run and call me a clueless fool, and all in all I think my response wasn't all that outta whack. Why do you suppose I'm supposed to be above it and sit quietly and take your abuse?

Seriously, you go right ahead and start a petition or whatever it is you want to do about it, but the fact of the matter is that from my perspective and for most on this board, Linux support is pretty much a non-issue. You don't live in a cave. You're aware I assume of which operating systems currently available have the widest selection of audio applications available, right? So if you choose to champion the cause of an OS that has unquestionably fewer audio offerings than the dominant OSs (Windows and Macintosh), that's your burden to bear and you chose it. If MOTU has time to do a driver or whatever is something I can't comment on, but don't get indignant about it as nothing is stopping you from going with the flow and running Mac OS or Windows. And yeah... I'm sure Linux has many, many advantages in terms of efficiency, etc. etc. However, the big disadvantage to my mind is that DP doesn't run on it, and I don't have time to buck the trend and try and get work done on a Linux box.

What an excellent moderator you aren't.

Sticks and stones. *Yawn*

I (and many others) would seriously like to know what motu's response to kroah's announcement was and why MOTU feel it unnecessary to prevent any open source drivers from being written.

Great. Then I suggest you e-mail or better yet, call MOTU and try and ask someone there as this is not an official MOTU site... just a privately-run user community.

anyway , it looks like ive managed to find a m-audio midiman interface which will
do a better job , they also seem to seem to understand why its not a good idea
to insult customers.

Hmmm... this leads me to believe that perhaps some clarification is needed:

THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL MOTU FORUM.

I AM NOT A MOTU EMPLOYEE.

So, let's be clear that MOTU did not insult you, nor did I really. You called me a clueless fool. If I were a MOTU employee I would be constrained by company policy to smile and take it. I'm not, hence I didn't. Take up the Linux driver thing with MOTU directly is my suggestion.

[James Steele]

-Personally, I'd rather MOTU make their gear Mac only, screw other OS support (and if MOTU released their API's, no matter how geeky linux users are, their support department will get more calls as a result), and focus on developing and optimizing DP for OSX, cause I am an OSX user. Is that gonna happen? probably not. Am i gonna raise a fuss? uhhhh no.

Yeah... I wouldn't mind this either.

I think maybe this is the issue with Linux, etc. It's all well and good and noble to make things open source, but when you remove the profit incentive from the equation things don't necessarily move fast. If Linux was controlled by a for-profit corporation and they felt that it behooved them to support hardware, then maybe they could push to make drivers or subsidize MOTU's development cost to make it available. What tends to happen is that if nobody's going to make any money to do something (for example MOTU doesn't see an improvement to their bottom line by releasing the spec or making their own Linux driver in house) then they'd have a hard time justifying this "charity work."

I don't know what the numbers are, but if MOTU felt they were losing out on a lot of potential sales of their audio interfaces due to the lack of Linux support, I'm sure they'd get on it. I can only assume that they do not yet perceive enough of a demand to make it worth their while and they may have their own reasons not to publish the specs to allow outside programmers to do it.

Again, this is a question best posed directly to MOTU, and they may or may not answer it.

[arth]

(and if MOTU released their API's, no matter how geeky linux users are, their support department will get more calls as a result)

(Thing is, if MOTU releases the API, some of those calls will be telling MOTU that they found a piece where the drivers erroneously believes a buffer is empty, or an arbitrary high bit that only causes problems for picky but compliant Firewire devices, and, by the way, here's how you fix it, and yes, you can of course send that out to your Mac and Windows users too. It won't happen for most support calls, but this type of feedback is what does invariably happen when projects are opened -- others find and fix bugs. And this will benefit all users, not just the Linux ones.)

[kelldammit]

motu probably views their drivers as their proprietary technology, and thusly would not release an API to the public. it's not unheard of.
it's their technology, so it's their right.
besides, with the competition listed, i just don't see any significant loss of market for them now, or anytime in the near future anyway. hell, apogee doesn't seem to mind losing the pc market altogether with their new stuff...why should motu sweat linux?

kell