Apple to start using INTEL chip......

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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by billf »

Originally posted by Umbrella:
I've read through the whole thread -- I think this move by Apple towards x86 should be viewed more as a broadening of options rather than the noose that some people seem to think it is...
The noose may be around Apples neck. Others have tried putting an alternative OS on Intel too (IBM, Sun, Linux etc.). As much as we all love OSX, it is still going to be an uphill battle for Apple to make a dent in the Microsoft empire.

I'll stay with my G5 and G4 until Apple proves they are going to be viable in the Intel world.
Also -- depending on what happens, Apple may not totally abandon the PPC platform -- we may see performance gains from IBM/Freescale as a result of this...

I am hopeful that this will work out in our favor (DP fans)...

Paul
You have a good point. Although some of the comments from IBM that I've seen in articles are blunt. They're happy to be able to free up R&D money for the PPC to focus on gaming. But things have a way of changing quickly in tech, so we shall see.

<small>[ June 07, 2005, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: TimeMist ]</small>
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by Umbrella »

"The noose may be around Apples neck. Others have tried putting an alternative OS on Intel too (IBM, Sun, Linux etc.). As much as we all love OSX, it is still going to be an uphill battle for Apple to make a dent in the Microsoft empire.

I'll stay with my G5 and G4 until Apple proves they are going to be viable in the Intel world."

I think the noose was much, much tighter when Apple was unprofitable in the mid-90's and fighting tooth and nail for its livelyhood...

Nobody knows yet, but I highly doubt that Apple will make OSX installable on any x86 PC just because it's using the same processor.

Now, what seems clear is that this move puts Microsoft on the defensive -- as OSX is readied for x86 primetime, it is obviously in Microsoft's best interest to keep OSX off of joe-sixpack PCs...

This could work to Apple's advantage, because it may insure that Microsoft continues development of Office for OSX to keep Apple happy, and in return, Apple won't directly compete with Windows on generic x86 hardware.

In a way, through the strangest of circumstances, it feels like Apple has the upper hand all of a sudden...

Paul

<small>[ June 07, 2005, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Umbrella ]</small>
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by composer11 »

Originally posted by Juan Alexei:
Some coments on the whole thread.

1) Apple did not say they were switching to PC but to x86. Don't expect running MacOS X on a standard PC.
Apple could even switch back to PPC or other processor available in the future.

This is exactly where most people are wrong - if source code is coded to x86, in less techinical terms, it would run on MAC or PC hardware.

For example, the PCI bus is standard as is AGP, and firewire ports. The only thing I think that MAC is proprietory is the MAC memory addressing, and as the speech indicated, this has been ported to x86. x86=standard hardware..

IMHO MAC will clean up the OS (for us video/audio) users and will make windows what it should have been and MAC what it should be.

The losers? Windows Operating System.
The winners? MAC Users, especially old school, or plug-and play types as with this change will come hundereds of thousands of PC tweakers that will tweak, tweak, tweak their hardware.

Example, a new MAC user buys a new x86 system with dual x2 AMD chips (in theory) and as a result gets 70 true verb WAVE diamond instances, a tweaker on the other hand get 110. This new MAC user wants to know what the tweaker did to his/her system, (most of the time, it's memory changes, e.g. setting up CAS, tRAD, etc. 2.5-4-4-2 (memory timings).

This indeed is a very good thing - - Apple can expect a few million OS Tiger purchases right out the door - and the ironic thing is, PC users are so large in their presence, that they demand fixes right away and their buying power usally brings that change - so all the worrying about buggy software will not be as long as one would think.

Let me illustrate a little further. When MAC first came out, you had MAC audio/graphics and the PC was usally used for office spreadsheets and word processing. However, once gaming came into play, with it came the demand for better graphics, better audio. Then, AMD came along and with it brought what some call PURE FPU power (the power needed to power VST plug-ins (another reason why Pro-Tools TDM is not as strong as it once was), anyway, this was on the PC side of things, and due to this DEMAND in higher performance, hardware and software OEM's made fortunes. Where most problems faulter is usally on the MS OS, not the x86 code per se.

Besides, there will be no more MAC vs PC wars but rather, Mac OS vs Microsoft. Indeed, these are interesting times.
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by billf »

Originally posted by composer11:
This is exactly where most people are wrong - if source code is coded to x86, in less techinical terms, it would run on MAC or PC hardware.
I agree with you with one caveat. Cnet ran an interview yesterday with one of the Apple SVP's who said that OSX will only run on the Macintels. What we don't know is how they intend to make that restriction occur since it wasn't specified whether that will be a licensing restriction, a technical restriction, or both.

Then of course, even if they have a technical restriction, there's always that little problem of all the little hackers that love to overcome that stuff in the WinTel world.

It's going to be interesting to watch.

<small>[ June 07, 2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: TimeMist ]</small>
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by composer11 »

Originally posted by TimeMist:
Originally posted by composer11:
This is exactly where most people are wrong - if source code is coded to x86, in less techinical terms, it would run on MAC or PC hardware.
I agree with you with one caveat. Cnet ran an interview yesterday with one of the Apple SVP's who said that OSX will only run on the Macintels. What we don't know is how they intend to make that restriction occur since it wasn't specified whether that will be a licensing restriction, a technical restriction, or both.

Then of course, even if they have a technical restriction, there's always that little problem of all the little hackers that love to overcome that stuff in the WinTel world.

It's going to be interesting to watch.
True, as I read something similar to that, however, the counter-point was very clear that it would be very easy to create a program that would allow the OS (MAC) to operate in standard PC parts, and this is not emulation per se, but true operating system.

IMO, although Jobs makes $$ on hardware sales, he would make a fortune if he allowed the OS to be sold for your average six-pack PC user that wants to get away from winDoze.

Keep in mind, there are many MAC users that don't get near the performance of a AMD 64 chip, there are many MAC users with 2,3,4 PC's running GIGASTUDIO with a MAC as the front.

All in all, with Longhorn (winDoze next OS) being so invasive, I think many people will be looking for an alternative anyway.
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by billf »

Originally posted by Umbrella:
Nobody knows yet, but I highly doubt that Apple will make OSX installable on any x86 PC just because it's using the same processor.
Yes, we do know. Apple stated yesterday that OSX will only run on the Macintels. What we don't know is how they intend to make that happen.
Now, what seems clear is that this move puts Microsoft on the defensive -- as OSX is readied for x86 primetime, it is obviously in Microsoft's best interest to keep OSX off of joe-sixpack PCs...
How does this put MS on the defensive? By the time this all occurs, MS will be close to, or have released Longhorn, so how does Apple gain marketshare? All MS needs to do is come up with their own versions of an iLife package, and Joe Sixpack is going to salivate over it.
This could work to Apple's advantage, because it may insure that Microsoft continues development of Office for OSX to keep Apple happy, and in return, Apple won't directly compete with Windows on generic x86 hardware.
Then that would be a violation of anti-trust laws, which is exactly what MS tried during the Netscape/IE wars. Not that MS is immune from going that direction again, but all MS needs to do to marginalize the Mac is to pull support for OSX Office. They won't right now because they need Apple as token competition. OTOH, they won't let Apple or anyone else eat away at their marketshare without a down and dirty fight.
In a way, through the strangest of circumstances, it feels like Apple has the upper hand all of a sudden...

Paul
I hope so. But I see this as an extremely risky move by Apple. The only way they have a hope of pulling this off is by having some major innovations in the pipeline that MS and others don't have and won't have in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately if it is just an OS slugfest (as things stand today), I don't think that is enough for Apple to win. Others have tried going up against MS and lost. What makes Apple different?
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by billf »

Originally posted by composer11:
True, as I read something similar to that, however, the counter-point was very clear that it would be very easy to create a program that would allow the OS (MAC) to operate in standard PC parts, and this is not emulation per se, but true operating system.
Darwin and BSD run on x86. so it isn't a stretch to imagine that there will be tons of script-kiddies out there running OSX cracks on their Dells.
All in all, with Longhorn (winDoze next OS) being so invasive, I think many people will be looking for an alternative anyway.
Intel has its own invasiveness plans with DRM built into the chips. Who knows, maybe our G4's and G5's will be the last machines built with any sort of privacy safeguards.

<small>[ June 07, 2005, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: TimeMist ]</small>
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by jmola9 »

I'm curious as I read this thread - how many have actually watched Jobs' keynote? The developers in attendance seemed quiet & skeptical at first, and seemed to be, to some degree anyway, won over by the end.

It would be suicide for Apple to leave hardware & software developers in the dark & it would be foolish for us to assume they would do so.

And as someone stated earlier in this thread, the loyalty should be to the OS and not the chip. We should still have as many options as we've already had if not more. These people are business people, yes. And they are surely responsible to their share holders. But they are also creative people like us and ultimately they know who their user base is.

Finally, I doubt MOTU will close its doors because of this. I've spent time with MOTU insiders and they always know what's coming long before we do. As Jobs said, OSX has been living a double life. No doubt MOTU will be included in their field testing before we ever see a machine hit an Apple store.
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by Umbrella »

Originally posted by TimeMist:
Originally posted by Umbrella:
Nobody knows yet, but I highly doubt that Apple will make OSX installable on any x86 PC just because it's using the same processor.
Yes, we do know. Apple stated yesterday that OSX will only run on the Macintels. What we don't know is how they intend to make that happen.
Now, what seems clear is that this move puts Microsoft on the defensive -- as OSX is readied for x86 primetime, it is obviously in Microsoft's best interest to keep OSX off of joe-sixpack PCs...
How does this put MS on the defensive? By the time this all occurs, MS will be close to, or have released Longhorn, so how does Apple gain marketshare? All MS needs to do is come up with their own versions of an iLife package, and Joe Sixpack is going to salivate over it.
This could work to Apple's advantage, because it may insure that Microsoft continues development of Office for OSX to keep Apple happy, and in return, Apple won't directly compete with Windows on generic x86 hardware.
Then that would be a violation of anti-trust laws, which is exactly what MS tried during the Netscape/IE wars. Not that MS is immune from going that direction again, but all MS needs to do to marginalize the Mac is to pull support for OSX Office. They won't right now because they need Apple as token competition. OTOH, they won't let Apple or anyone else eat away at their marketshare without a down and dirty fight.
In a way, through the strangest of circumstances, it feels like Apple has the upper hand all of a sudden...

Paul
I hope so. But I see this as an extremely risky move by Apple. The only way they have a hope of pulling this off is by having some major innovations in the pipeline that MS and others don't have and won't have in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately if it is just an OS slugfest (as things stand today), I don't think that is enough for Apple to win. Others have tried going up against MS and lost. What makes Apple different?
Inovations such as better system security, better GUI, better overall stability, better handling of multimedia, etc, etc...

OSX already has these and is better poised than a theoretical OS -- Longhorn -- with an ambiguous release date in 2007.

I think it would be correct to assume that these things we appreciate in OSX are only going to get better.

My point is -- now that Apple could easily release an OSX that would run on regular PC hardware, it threatens to be the fiercest competition to Windows on x86 hardware as of yet, and to avoid this competition, Microsoft will appease Apple by continuing development of the Office suite (anti-trust laws aside) for Macintel -- which ultimately puts Apple in an unfamiliarly comfortable position against Microsoft.
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by composer11 »

Originally posted by Blueflame:


Finally, I doubt MOTU will close its doors because of this. I've spent time with MOTU insiders and they always know what's coming long before we do. As Jobs said, OSX has been living a double life. No doubt MOTU will be included in their field testing before we ever see a machine hit an Apple store.
True, but what I do find curious is that some users on the Hardware forum using MOTU hardware with Nuendo on a PC, state that the HD92 *example, does not sound as good, and according to Nuendo, it's MOTU's ASIO drivers that are at fault.

While I thought this issue (MOTU hardware MAC biased) was long over, I am surprised that this is still an issue. It's things like this, (going by way of x86) that I hope brings PC MOTU hardware users over to the MAC. As it stands right now, PC sales for software and hardware (including plug-ins on the PC side) far out weigh the MAC side of things. With the introduction of x86, I'm hopeful that the tides change for the better.
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by billf »

Originally posted by Blueflame:
I'm curious as I read this thread - how many have actually watched Jobs' keynote? The developers in attendance seemed quiet & skeptical at first, and seemed to be, to some degree anyway, won over by the end.

It would be suicide for Apple to leave hardware & software developers in the dark & it would be foolish for us to assume they would do so.

And as someone stated earlier in this thread, the loyalty should be to the OS and not the chip. We should still have as many options as we've already had if not more. These people are business people, yes. And they are surely responsible to their share holders. But they are also creative people like us and ultimately they know who their user base is.

Finally, I doubt MOTU will close its doors because of this. I've spent time with MOTU insiders and they always know what's coming long before we do. As Jobs said, OSX has been living a double life. No doubt MOTU will be included in their field testing before we ever see a machine hit an Apple store.
People are skeptical for a number of reasons I think. One is that the Intel architecture hasn't been very kind to non-Windows enterants in the past. Unix OS's on Intel are not new, but it remains to be seen how well Linux and OSX fair in the Intel world. Apple's history has been to compete with others by being different in hardware and software, so CPU design has always been a traditional part of the Mac experience. We will know in about a year if that continues to be the case.

As for MOTU, it is more than just DP (although DP is their flagship application). MOTU also has some very nice hardware, and of course MachFive, MX4 etc, and I would expect that DP 5 is probably well into the development phase right now and will be a PPC program. Will it be an Intel ready program? Who cares, no one owns a Macintel right now anyway.
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by billf »

Originally posted by Umbrella:
Inovations such as better system security, better GUI, better overall stability, better handling of multimedia, etc, etc...

OSX already has these and is better poised than a theoretical OS -- Longhorn -- with an ambiguous release date in 2007.

I think it would be correct to assume that these things we appreciate in OSX are only going to get better.

My point is -- now that Apple could easily release an OSX that would run on regular PC hardware, it threatens to be the fiercest competition to Windows on x86 hardware as of yet, and to avoid this competition, Microsoft will appease Apple by continuing development of the Office suite (anti-trust laws aside) for Macintel -- which ultimately puts Apple in an unfamiliarly comfortable position against Microsoft.
Have you ever tried Sun Solaris? Rock solid, secure, built on Unix, runs on Intel, and has for many years. It has been unable to penetrate the Windows empire. Sun even released an office suite (that is compatible with MS-Office files) for free. You could blame the failure of Solaris on Sun ineptitude, but a better OS than Windows which runs on x86, and has a free MS Office compatible office suite is already out there and has been for many years.

How about OS2 from IBM? Many claim it was far superior to Windows. IBM is a big company which makes (or made) their own hardware for PC's and even had a market leader in desktop apps with Lotus 1-2-3. They were unable to make a dent in Windows, and eventually Lotus 1-2-3 lost out to Excel.

The point is that Apple is truly moving itself into battle by going into the belly of the beast. Others have tried it too, so be careful of making the logical leap that people will flock to OSX because it is better. While it is true that OSX is better, the market has yet to prove itself willing to follow.

<small>[ June 07, 2005, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: TimeMist ]</small>
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by composer11 »

Originally posted by TimeMist:

The point is that Apple is truly moving itself into battle by going into the belly of the beast. Others have tried it too, so be careful of making the logical leap that people will flock to OSX because it is better. While it is true that OSX is better, the market has yet to prove itself willing to follow.
All true indeed, however, one must keep in mind the following.............

Apple was by far at one time, the standard for the art community and PC where left to lowly data base, spreadsheet and word processing.

However, with the onslaught of gaming, CDR, DVD +and-R. and multimedia, AMD came out with a chip that trumphed the P3 and P4 series of chips. This got the Apple users attention, especially with Gigastudio which is still the x86 kernel.

Then, in a rare move, Apple shot itself in the foot as by purchasing Emagic (Logic) and coming up with Final Cut (cutting into Adobe product line) these two huge company's (Adobe and Avid), where for some words, ticked off. Adobe even went so far as releasing their latest version of Premiere as PC only. This is why your seeing companys like Avid buy M-Audio and slowy releasing FPU (native) products or why Adobe acquired Macromedia, Fireworks and Dreamweaver are huge cash cows.

The bottom line is, things like TDM are soon to be over, while one can not argue that a Digi board Digidesign ICON is a good thing for Pro Tools, why would this be needed if a nice Sony Digital (or Mackie) board would do with Hardware that cost 1/4th the price, including MOTU, Appogee, etc, with newer Dual Cores and Double Dual Core motherboards on the way.

These newer systems (as one mentioned Sun, Solaris), even Sun sells Opteron workstations that are used for feature films...and many others such as Star Wars:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543~89153,00.html?redir=CPJF01

I recall a time when in a Avid Edit bay, we would have to wait hours upon hours for a 1/2 segment to render which now, using NON AVID products takes 1/10 the time and costs about 1/100th of an Avid workstation, (non MAC).

PC Audio sales probably out weigh MAC audio sales 100 to 1, probably even higher, but you see, it's not that there are many anti-mac people, it's more like the PC gets the job done faster, and by a quick margin I might add, in fact, AMD leads the way with rendering now, much faster than Intel, and MAC as it stands right now, for every 1 product that SJ has, PC or rather x86 in winDozE has 100, which translates to fierce competition and reduced cost to the end user, plus more $$ for future development.

This said, there are many users that I know that would rather use LOGIC or DP as the front end to a MOTU piece or FIREFACE, or Appogee, etc, but use the PC (or link it anyway) with a MAC as they have committed larger dollars to huge sample libraries in various formats. While this window of sampling is shrinking, Gigastudio still has the best sounding engine, and nothing quite comes close to the warmth and real feel as giga, which of course is a PC only product.

Then of course, on the windows side, many HATE windows, but love the applications (programs), so it's a double edged sword that one must live with.

It's up to Steve to seize the moment, set a standard for hardware, perhaps even a small licensing fee, allow and certify vendors (I also garner that AMD will be the better solution in the end with Apple/ATI/Nvdia) and sell the OS. 20% of the market by 2009, especially if vendors/oems see a trend back toward a growing market (Apple/AMD) and need only to develop one set of drivers.

Just my few cents, again.
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by billf »

PC Audio sales probably out weigh MAC audio sales 100 to 1, probably even higher, but you see, it's not that there are many anti-mac people, it's more like the PC gets the job done faster, and by a quick margin I might add, in fact, AMD leads the way with rendering now, much faster than Intel, and MAC as it stands right now, for every 1 product that SJ has, PC or rather x86 in winDozE has 100, which translates to fierce competition and reduced cost to the end user, plus more $$ for future development.
I'm not sure about these numbers. But okay, if you say so. Still, how is OSX on Intel supposed to change any of this? Apple can't get the market share unless you get the apps first. The chip inside is irrelevant to a large degree. I still don't see how Apple is going to get those cool Windows programs you reference, like Giga, ported to OSX.
This said, there are many users that I know that would rather use LOGIC or DP as the front end to a MOTU piece or FIREFACE, or Appogee, etc, but use the PC (or link it anyway) with a MAC as they have committed larger dollars to huge sample libraries in various formats. While this window of sampling is shrinking, Gigastudio still has the best sounding engine, and nothing quite comes close to the warmth and real feel as giga, which of course is a PC only product.
But Macs moving to Intel do nothing to get Giga ported over to OSX. Apple will make a dent if they come out with something so monumental and new and cool that everyone has to have it, and they catch MS flatfooted. Then people will switch to OSX.
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Re: Apple to start using INTEL chip......

Post by mastermix »

[quote]Originally posted by Morpheo:
I So for now, I trust SJ and Apple. :)

Kris...
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