Master Separations....Anyone doing this?

[Fibes]

A lot of mastering dudes are asking for stems so they can have greater control over your work, screw that, if you don't have control over it going to 2 trk have someone else mix it.

Stems are fine for post work and film stuff, it's a nature of the beast. mastering dudes screwing with stems is like a lead guitarist playing bass. YKWIS? Take control or get out of the way.

You'd be surprised at how much control an ME has simply by doing M/S mastering.

[Splinter]

One reason ME's like alternate mixes or stems is so they can make slight changes based on the applied settings (ie. compression and limiting) which can change the relative volumes of different instruments depending on the desired amount of dynamic processing. That seems fair to me.

[Shooshie]

Originally posted by wonder:
I've sent a lot of work to this guy, he's actually really good. Its amazing the difference a TOP QUALITY studio makes in the mixes, whether mine or someone elses mixes.
Sorry to say, but doing complete projects from start to finish in ONE computer without outside help of a HIGH PRICED studio with HIGH PRICED gear and HIGH PRICED ears is just not possible to get the same quality as commercial cds.

Have i just opened a can of worms?

Oh, maybe it's a can of worms, but not the can we're fishing with. I don't think anyone here disagrees that a 2nd set of ears is a good thing, and hardly anyone would attempt to distribute a CD that hasn't been to a mastering studio. But your UPPER CASE emphasis of "high priced" is kind of silly. I've had my mixes mastered by Bernie Grundman himself (who delights me when he calls reverb "echo," from the days of his youth), but a client preferred to have their tracks remastered by a much cheaper set of ears which they just thought were better for what they were trying to get. For their case, I had to agree. The final result was pretty much what they wanted. High price means nothing. Talent is everything, and you don't know but what you may be talking to some of the most talented people around in these forums. I certainly don't include myself in that group, but I know some of our people here are pretty amazing. Chasing $$$ signs will get you nowhere.

The real point here is whether it is a good idea to send your stems to someone else for mixing. I don't think so. Just do two versions; with and without vocals. That's a lot less complicated than sending stems, and it ensures that your mixes are going to be pretty much as you want them, then polished by a mastering studio that does work which you respect---at whatever price.

Shooshie

[wonder]

HIGH PRICED gear in the right hands is better than HIGH PRICED gear in the wrong hands, or no gear at all for that matter.
I agree with you, but its worth it for me to pay a good MEngineer who has spend the money on superb gear to get my products up to par.

[m2]

posted May 10, 2005 09:55 AM                      

So, does that mean that I need to make two masters? - one mastered with the vocal for "normal" release of the song, i.e. CD, radio, etc., and another master without the vocal in anticipation that a film maker would want the song without the vocal?

Certainly adds to the price of the mastering piece of the project.

Basically 'Yes'. One version that is a 2 mix as we've done in the past and a version that is EXACTLY THE SAME as a pair of stems 1. a vocal stem 2. the balance of the piece. I'm not sure how much more mastering really has to be done here. I think once you've created a setup for the 2 mix you do whatever [hopefully minor] tweak you need to master the individual stems. Sure the compressors are going to respond differently with the change in material/ gain and so on. But all the EQ should be pretty square with the stems from the 2 mix. Tweak and listen, you're there.

[merrek]

Stems that are provided within a mastering session aren't there for the mastering engineer to "remix", thats not there purpose.

When a problems is discovered for example--say a track needs a few dB of compression to tame the bass--stems allow the mastering engineer to work on a stem independently (which may be just the bass track) and apply any needed processing without affecting the other stems (tracks or frequencies). Sometimes, more choices can equal less compromise. If there was only a stereo track, any added compression might compromise the other instruments in your mix, like the vocal or cymbals.

True, stems give a lot of control over to the mastering engineer... but hopefully your working with an engineer thay you trust.

[Fibes]

Originally posted by merrek:
Stems that are provided within a mastering session aren't there for the mastering engineer to "remix", thats not there purpose.

When a problems is discovered for example--say a track needs a few dB of compression to tame the bass--stems allow the mastering engineer to work on a stem independently (which may be just the bass track) and apply any needed processing without affecting the other stems (tracks or frequencies). Sometimes, more choices can equal less compromise. If there was only a stereo track, any added compression might compromise the other instruments in your mix, like the vocal or cymbals.

True, stems give a lot of control over to the mastering engineer... but hopefully your working with an engineer thay you trust.

Making decisions and commiting is part of our job description, mix it, send the 2 trk to an ME and be done with it.

BTW a good ME through the use of M/S processing can tweak the bass without compromising much else. If an ME has to go beyond 2dB with eq the tune needs to be remixed.

If i had my druthers i'd send stems only to mix engineers, but not MEs.

[wylie]

Originally posted by wonder:
Which Tascam Board?

DM24?

No I mean old, vintage like me.
I think its M3400 24x4 I can't see it right now and I've worked with lots of the new stuff but something about the circuitry in these old boards,
the pre's are warm and I can do things with the EQ's that I can seem to get in the box.Although I really like the MW stuff.
I do all my summing through it from a 2408km3 and the results are great.
I guess my point was they make it sound like you need to drop 4k for a summing device but in the end its has allot to do with the way you work with your tools.
Sure its nice if everything is shinny and new but an old car will get you to the same place as a new one.

[llowis]

High Priced gear with qualified/good "ears" = Great results. Low Priced, but clean, gear with qualified/good "ears" = still very good/great results. The best - high priced - gear in unqualified hands = mediocre results.

Usually the "high price" follows great ears/skill. I'm sure I'm stating the obvious... but with many homes full of very good gear, mics, preamps, DAW's, etc ... you can hear many "so-so" results. We are all learning and working to have the skill and ears of the "big dollar" people. But, there still are the 'big dollar' people out there (just because we have the same mastering gear - we are not them).

It's the player, not the instrument (overall). That Stradivarius will just sound like a cheap fiddle in the wrong hands!

I'm still a believer in mastering doing their thing, we do the mix. If mastering had to do that much drastic stuff, we better re-mix, or get better at it!

... my 5 cents - isn't music awesome!!

<small>[ May 11, 2005, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: larry33 ]</small>

[wonder]

Originally posted by larry33:
we do the mix.

Speak for yourself...I HATE TO MIX!!!

[llowis]

Might I suggest you take up something with less mixing .... oh, say knitting, for example! - just kiddin'!

[wonder]

Oooh! Below the belt!

Actually, I'm more into playing and producing rather than mixing and engineering.

But knitting has its benefits. Not as many groupies.....but I'm sure there are benefits.

[llowis]

.. good one! And you're right on re: playing/producing vs. mixing/engineering ... two differnt 'arts'. Some can dabble in all, some should not! Or don't prefer to! Well, back to my knitting...

<small>[ May 12, 2005, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: larry33 ]</small>