Color me crazy - getting a Mackie mixer to use with DP...

Resonant Alien · Post by **Resonant Alien** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:52 am

I currently use a Mackie Big Knob with DP as my monitor control. I came across a really sweet deal on a Mackie 1642-VLZPro and snatched it up. I am basically planning to use if for tracking multiple sources (drums) and also to replace the Big Knob, but I am planning to experiment with a couple of other zany ideas.

First, a disclaimer: I'm not stupid - I know a Mackie compact mixer, as good as they are, is no API, Neve, Soundcraft, Allen & Heath, etc., so I'm not expecting those kind of results, but..........

I'm planning to experiement with hardware versus software panning. Periodically, someone posts a thread about DP's panning and that hardware panning still sounds better, even on a "cheap mixer". I'm going to see if the Mackie offers anything different and/or "better" than DP.

Second, I'm planning to experiment with a "poor-man's" version of analog summing. I know, I know, using a Mackie mixer as an analog summing box would not be in the same ballpark as using a Dangerous 2-bus or API 8820 or Neve 8816, but I can't afford that stuff, so I'm interested to see if analog summing, even on an inexpensive mixer, has something to offer.

Am I wasting my time with this?

RA

gearboy · Post by **gearboy** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:31 am

Cross-talk, stale mic preamps, etc. I used to have a 1604VLZPro. Sold it, never looked back.

Get a BLA mod and use Trim with it. Opens up the stereo field much more than the 1642 will. Wait, you have a FF... I thought that you had an 896HD. Sorry.

Please report back any satisfactory results.

Jeff

vier-personen · Post by **vier-personen** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:46 am

If you have a Big Knob, you should definitely A/B it with the VLZ. If I‘m correct, the Big Knob is much more neutral sounding than the VLZ (no EQs, etc.). If this is the case, you should keep it for mixing.

As for the other questions I would say experimenting is never a waste of time. If the analogue summing sounds good, great. If not, even better because you will have learned something.

That said, I have the smaller VLZ 1402 and I can confirm everything about the VLZ series Jeff has said.

have fun!

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:59 am

Hey, RA.

I'm getting a 16 ch Onyx for similar reasons.
That should negate the need for a Big Knob (besides, who needs one?(!)).

I mixed my first demo track on a Mackie CR-1604.
The next 5 songs went through a YAMAHA ProMix01.
Now, I know the ProMix isn't DP, but it is cheap digital.
By the same token, the Mackie isn't SSL, but it's, well, cheap analog.
Perhaps something can be gleaned from the following, at least in principle.

The ProMix tracks had a pleasing, sparkly, if inaccurate hype to the top end, were somewhat thin and the panning seemed "smudged".
The Mackie song, on the other hand, had punch and a tight, "American" sweetness to the highs.
The instruments seemed to have better-defined locations, too.
The Mackie used to boast equal-power panning, a first in a desk of it's size and price.
This could affect your pan experiments, although I think DP does this too.

IMHO, you're not wasting your time if things sound better to you.

No, you're not nuts.
You're a bloody looney, so join the club, RA!

vier-personen · Post by **vier-personen** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:25 am

monkey man wrote:Hey, RA.

I'm getting a 16 ch Onyx for similar reasons.
That should negate the need for a Big Knob (besides, who needs one?(!)).

Onyx is not VLZ : )

pencilina · Post by **pencilina** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:42 am

I think the summing will probably be an improvement over ITB mxing. Your ears will tell you whats up.

MT · Post by MT » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:48 am

monkey man wrote:I'm getting a 16 ch Onyx for similar reasons.

I'd highly recommend the Front End Audio mod if you want to get more out of the DSub outs, if you're thinking of using those. Makes the outputs much more useful if you're routing them somewhere.

MT

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:59 am

vier-personen wrote:
monkey man wrote:Hey, RA.
I'm getting a 16 ch Onyx for similar reasons.
That should negate the need for a Big Knob (besides, who needs one?(!)).
Onyx is not VLZ : )

Thank you for reminding me, my Dutch friend.

The point was simply that if the CR-1604 could provide a punchier mix, there may be value in testing the VLZ as it was far superior.

RA's got a VLZ, so that's what's being tested.
As he said, he "can't afford that stuff", and is "interested to see if analog summing, even on an inexpensive mixer, has something to offer".

My Onyx reference was to do with the fact that I hope to be using it in the same capacity as RA his VLZ, sans Big Knob.
Just an "in-principle" supportive gesture to say he's not crazy.

Yeah, different leagues.
After all, the Mackie purchase, for me at least, is an effort to achieve some sort of quality.
If the experiment works out well for RA, Onyx or better could be on the cards one day.
Just not today, hey RA?

gearboy · Post by **gearboy** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:03 am

pencilina wrote:I think the summing will probably be an improvement over ITB mxing. Your ears will tell you whats up.

Sure, summing will be an improvement... on a good board. Not one of those Mackie VLZ boards. You are dumbing down your audio. I used to have a VLZ board and used it with an HD24, an iMac G3, and my G5. Right now my ITB mixes are killing compared to any other setup that I've had.

Comparing a summed mix between a Mackie and a Neve is the same as comparing the XDR preamp to a Neve preamp. And then some, since it's not just the preamp that your audio will be travelling through. Think of all the non-audiophile parts in that Mackie.

Jeff

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:06 am

MT wrote:
monkey man wrote:I'm getting a 16 ch Onyx for similar reasons.
I'd highly recommend the Front End Audio mod if you want to get more out of the DSub outs, if you're thinking of using those. Makes the outputs much more useful if you're routing them somewhere.

MT

Thanks, MT, and good guess.
I'm going the DSubs to avoid possible driver glitches, etc.

Is that the mod that includes the (switchable) EQ path pre the direct outs?
If so, that could be handy. I haven't heard of any other "mods".

I'm outa here.
Look forward to hearing wassup tomorrow.

Thanks for the suggestion, MT.

vier-personen · Post by **vier-personen** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:24 am

monkey man wrote:
vier-personen wrote:
monkey man wrote:Hey, RA.
I'm getting a 16 ch Onyx for similar reasons.
That should negate the need for a Big Knob (besides, who needs one?(!)).
Onyx is not VLZ : )
Thank you for reminding me, my Dutch friend.

The point was simply that if the CR-1604 could provide a punchier mix, there may be value in testing the VLZ as it was far superior.

RA's got a VLZ, so that's what's being tested.
As he said, he "can't afford that stuff", and is "interested to see if analog summing, even on an inexpensive mixer, has something to offer".

My Onyx reference was to do with the fact that I hope to be using it in the same capacity as RA his VLZ, sans Big Knob.
Just an "in-principle" supportive gesture to say he's not crazy.

Yeah, different leagues.
After all, the Mackie purchase, for me at least, is an effort to achieve some sort of quality.
If the experiment works out well for RA, Onyx or better could be on the cards one day.
Just not today, hey RA?

hey nicky,

I was just trying to say that listening through a VLZ board can colour the sound IMHO and that the concept of a device as the BK is to colour as little as possible (no eq, etc).
And that the Onyx mixers are better in this (2nd hand info that is, so take it for what it‘s worth), so that I would keep a big knob if I already had one, If I got a VLZ mixer - that I already have ; )

sooo I hope I made myself clear this time

btw, to find me you‘d have look a little more in the south-east ; )

jrdmcdnld · Post by **jrdmcdnld** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:40 am

Just skimmed these posts and don't know if someone mentioned this or not...

Mackie now has revised VLZ mixers(VLZ3). The THD specs on the new ones are outstanding (both mic pre and mixer). I have yet to actually hear one. They sell for the same price as the old VLZs.

If you think DPs panner sucks (as I do), try trim and or download Sonalksis "FreeG" panner. You can specify pan law with freeG. In my humble opinion, a +6 pan law adds punch to a mix.

Resonant Alien · Post by **Resonant Alien** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:18 am

gearboy wrote:Sure, summing will be an improvement... on a good board. Not one of those Mackie VLZ boards.

.....snip........

Comparing a summed mix between a Mackie and a Neve is the same as comparing the XDR preamp to a Neve preamp.

Hey Jeff - Thanks for the thoughts. I am undertaking this without expectation - I may arrive at the same conclusions as you and return the board, or I may arrive somewhere else - don't know at this point. I've got 30 days to return the board if it doesn't do anything for me, so nothing lost but shipping costs.

Just to offer up though that the Mackie VLZ boards, while certainly not in the league of a Neve or API, are generally considered good boards. I do respect that you (and a lot of others I presume) do not care for them. But in general they are "pro" quality pieces, as the 1604 in its various incarnations has been doing some pretty heavy lifting in pro settings for 15 odd years. Certainly there are compromises....

I'm not pretending to compare the Mackie in any way to a Neve - either in terms of preamps, EQs, or summing capabilties - even Monkey Man would call me crazy if I attempted to do that.

Anyway, should be interesting. I will definitely post my thoughts, even if it is to say "Dammit Jeff, you were right - WTF was I thinking?!?" And my thoughts certainly will not be any kind of definitive revelation - it will still just be one Alien's opinion.

Rick

Resonant Alien · Post by **Resonant Alien** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:25 am

vier-personen wrote: hey nicky,

I was just trying to say that listening through a VLZ board can colour the sound IMHO and that the concept of a device as the BK is to colour as little as possible (no eq, etc).

True, but I have also heard many people complain that the BK also colors (American spelling - sorry) the sound in much the same way as the Mackie boards (with EQ off on the board of course). Now, if the BK does color the sound, I have not noticed it, and if I noticed it and didn't know it, it didn't bother me, so.....

Don't know - haven't sold my BK yet, and I won't until I make my final decision on the VLZ after I play around with it. S'posed to get to me on Monday next week, so we'll see.

On the issue of monitoring controllers, I am getting really interested to see what the new Universal Audio monitor controller is going to be like....

Maybe I'm a little bit old school, but I like have tactile control over my audio.....even having a fader control surface to control DP is not enough sometimes - maybe this experiement of mine has as much to do with satisfying my need for knobs and faders as it does trying to achieve an incremental improvment in sound quality.

RA

Resonant Alien · Post by **Resonant Alien** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:33 am

jrdmcdnld wrote:Mackie now has revised VLZ mixers(VLZ3). The THD specs on the new ones are outstanding (both mic pre and mixer). I have yet to actually hear one. They sell for the same price as the old VLZs.

Yeah, I saw those, but now that the VLZ3s are out, they slashed the prices on the VLZPro - pretty sweet prices on those now.

jrdmcdnld wrote:If you think DPs panner sucks (as I do), try trim and or download Sonalksis "FreeG" panner. You can specify pan law with freeG. In my humble opinion, a +6 pan law adds punch to a mix.

I like Trim for stereo tracks. I have FreeG, but I've never tried panning with it. I'll give that a spin along with the Mackie.