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chrispick
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Post by chrispick »

Shooshie wrote:Jim's right. This stuff about everything being relative, and everyone's opinion counting only goes so far. Once the person's tastes are revealed to be based on nothing, the opinion also is based on nothing. Crap fills the airwaves, because there's a lot of nothing out there posing as opinions.
How can taste be based on nothing? How can opinion be based on nothing? These are both subjective traits you cite. The argument at hand regards objective evaluation of music, specifically a quantifiable means of criteria for establishing musical quality.

I'd argue no such thing exists. The best we have is epochal, academic consensus of opinion.

Don't get me wrong. I hear stuff all the time and say to myself,"that was pretty crappy," but my evaluation is all built upon subjectively-based criteria. That criteria might be lifted and extracted from erudite concepts developed by minds and disciplines more sophisticated than my own, and based on a long historical tradition -- canonical, if you will -- but it's still just opinion. Consensus opinion among those steeped in esoteric study and knowledge of the subject? Sure, but still opinion.

It boils down to this for me: Music is an aesthetic substance. As such, it can have plenty of value (e.g., culturally, emotionally, intellectually). It's a magnificent game for the brain, front to back. But, it's an abstraction. It's based on systems that are abstract. Sometimes it's simulacra, like when an instrument emulates a non-instrumental sound -- say, a piccolo "singing" like a bird -- or emanates from non-instrumental material, but its calculated formation -- it is art, after all -- is an exercise in abstract creation. It has no denotative meaning, only connotative, and as such can only be a subjective language in the end.
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Post by chrispick »

Jim wrote:C'mon, Chris. You're a musician. You know this. It's, of course hyperbole to say that "I couldn't live without music" but, really, I couldn't live without music.
Although I've never tried -- because why give up something so good? -- I think I could live without music. Certainly, from here on out I could, as I have so much in my head -- borrowed,concocted and brutally imposed -- already. But possibly throughout a lifetime. No way I can ever know.

I wonder if anyone ever has? It does seem like music is intrinsically linked with humanity worldwide.
Good music can be quantified, like good architecture. That's why I used it as an example. To do so could take a book, and that's been done already by far better people than me. There are courses in schools that care about music devoted to what constitutes good music.
Well, I think the aesthetic qualities of architecture can be comparable to the aesthetic qualites of music (which comprise nearly all of it short of intonation which is based on fixed-number frequencies). But the practical use qualities of architecture (e.g., whether or not a roof with stay up, etc.) are incomparable.

Moreover, I think the aesthetic qualities of music and architecture are ephemeral -- at best canonical -- and subjective.
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Post by Resonant Alien »

chrispick wrote:
Shooshie wrote:Jim's right. This stuff about everything being relative, and everyone's opinion counting only goes so far. Once the person's tastes are revealed to be based on nothing, the opinion also is based on nothing. Crap fills the airwaves, because there's a lot of nothing out there posing as opinions.
How can taste be based on nothing? How can opinion be based on nothing? These are both subjective traits you cite. The argument at hand regards objective evaluation of music, specifically a quantifiable means of criteria for establishing musical quality.

I'd argue no such thing exists. The best we have is epochal, academic consensus of opinion.
+1. It is all relative, and because it is all relative, there cannot possibly be objective and quantifiable global criteria. What is considered "good music" in any given culture is based on a consensus historical opinion of that society, and it may or may not be based on music theory, and one society's music can be polar opposite from anothers - not just in construction but in the very scales that are used. How do you compare Traditional Indian, traditional Chinese, Delta Blues and Carribbean Voodoo chants and come out with any objective criteria to judge them globally as good or not.

Can we live without music? Of course we can. None of us would want to, but music is not a necessity for survival. To survive you basically only need food, shelter and water. Everything else is a "luxury" if you will. Even if music was a necessity, how do you cross cultural boundaries and say what is good and what is not good? Food is a necessity for survival, but there is a lot of food that I would not consider "good food". I would be in no hurry to eat monkey brain stew, but in some cultures that is considered a delicacy.
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Post by sdemott »

Well, it depends. There is scientific evidence that music affects the brain. There is historical proof that music plays an important part in ritual...and furthermore that ritual is an necessary part of our psyches (hence the abhorrent condition of "modern", non-ritualized, civilization). So, by the transitive property, music is a necessary part of life.

Now, that may be a stretch, but the fact of the matter is...music has real & measurable physiological effects on humans (and maybe other species too). There is something in us that creates a need for it (in some way).

Now the question of good vs. bad music, i don't know...but what studies do prove is that complex music (music with multiple melodic parts played simultaneously in a complimentary (non-dissonant) way) has a greater measurable effect & has several desirable side effects: more brain pathways, better cognitive skills, including less deterioration and a longer time until it's onset. The most amazing study proved that musicians who play complex music continue to build new brain pathways long after others of the same age have stopped building those pathways and have begun to show deterioration in their existing pathways.

Not to get metaphysical on everyone here but...everything is vibration, sound, light, physical objects. We're years from a definitive answer, but my bet is that music (in the stated sense) is indeed a human necessity and a very powerful tool.

Of course...now I'm just ranting...so who knows... :-)
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Post by chrispick »

sdemott wrote:Well, it depends. There is scientific evidence that music affects the brain. There is historical proof that music plays an important part in ritual...and furthermore that ritual is an necessary part of our psyches (hence the abhorrent condition of "modern", non-ritualized, civilization). So, by the transitive property, music is a necessary part of life.
Yeah, I saw a documentary that showed that music affects an enormous proportion of a human listener's brain.
Now, that may be a stretch, but the fact of the matter is...music has real & measurable physiological effects on humans (and maybe other species too). There is something in us that creates a need for it (in some way).
I sort of alluded to that need -- I think "desire" may a better word -- in a previous post..
Now the question of good vs. bad music, i don't know...but what studies do prove is that complex music (music with multiple melodic parts played simultaneously in a complimentary (non-dissonant) way) has a greater measurable effect & has several desirable side effects: more brain pathways, better cognitive skills, including less deterioration and a longer time until it's onset.
I'm suspicious of the "non-dissonant" qualification, but would welcome everything else you said. I've heard it been said, however, about any activity that "works your brain muscles" (i.e., reading a book that spins a few brain gears, solving crossword puzzles, etc.).
The most amazing study proved that musicians who play complex music continue to build new brain pathways long after others of the same age have stopped building those pathways and have begun to show deterioration in their existing pathways.
Well, I must say, I definitely believe in the cognitive-generative properties of playing -- or even trying to play -- complex music. Again, it's all about exercising gray matter (as far as I know). I'm always trying to teach myself new licks, explore more complex chord progressions, etc.

But complexity doesn't necessarily translate into beauty. Or solemnity. Simplicity often does.
Not to get metaphysical on everyone here but...everything is vibration, sound, light, physical objects. We're years from a definitive answer, but my bet is that music (in the stated sense) is indeed a human necessity and a very powerful tool.
Poop is vibration, sound, light and physical object too.

Wasn't it Carl Sagan who once said, "We are all poop-stuff?" I might be paraphrasing.
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Post by James Steele »

Shooshie wrote:James, your decision to limit your guitar solo may be valid for your production values based on your guitar soloing, but there exists a guitar soloist out there somewhere who can take that next 8 bars and keep the audience with them. And another 16 bars after that. Why? Because that's their thing. It's like Keith Jarrett. He's a fabulous pianist and improvisor, and though not everyone likes him, he's done very well at keeping his audiences glued to his performances. Ralph Towner is a guitarist who does likewise. Well, if we start naming names, there're too many to name, but your decision was best for your song for your album at your point in time.
Of course. These things are naturally subjective. At that point in time, with that song, my little producer inside me said to limit it. I liked the solo... I even felt the solo when it went for 16 bars was excellent, but again it was an analytical decision based on what I want my music to be, and of course this is also influence by the fact that I'm also a singer.

I hate to break it down so dispassionately, but at some point there's a certain ratio, hence the use of the word "formula" that often evokes such a negative connotation. However, certain "forumlas" *work*... or at the very least have a higher probability of "success" than others. For the song I mentioned, it is quite possible or rather probable that I will extend the guitar solo in a live setting. Live performance is the ideal venue for improvisation in my mind. I personally would be disappointed to see a rock band in concert and watch a *recital* rather than a *performance.* I'm likely to be bored if I see a band produce exact renditions of the studio versions of their songs.

So to me... and I speak only for myself... I look at it this way:

Total song duration = X
X should be <= (less than or equal to) 4:00 or 240 seconds
Guitar solo duration = Y
Y should be <= 1/8 X or 30 seconds

I'm exaggerating to make a point here. These aren't necessarily hard and fast rules, but I impose limitations on myself by choice. It isn't that I wouldn't have a great old time soloing for longer, but if I wish to write in a specific genre (which I do) and I choose to limit the duration of the overall song, then I have a finite amount of time that I will allow myself to play a guitar solo, and not necessarily because I couldn't make it interesting, but rather it wouldn't really fit within the guidelines I have set for myself... granted they are self-imposed. Putting a big guitar solo in this song would have been the same as having a small living room, and buying a gigantic oversize sofa. I choose to work in a genre that prefers by and large small, compact "homes"... I really do love 12 foot long overstuffed leather sofas, but it's too big for my living room. :-)

This all boils down to genre and choices. I'll confess this in front of the world... I feel no desire or compulsion at this point to stretch the boundaries of music or any sort of lofty ambitions of that nature. Like you said, I know what I am setting out to do and I'm making decisions to keep myself on target. :-)
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Post by Mr_Clifford »

James, maybe you can save that 16 bar solo for the 'live' album in a few years time.

Good on you for making the call. I like big epic guitar solos as much as the next guy, but nothing can kill a great song like bloated instrumental sections.

Someone very wise once said "You should always finish too early and leave them wanting more rather than have them wishing you'd finished sooner".
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Post by Shooshie »

Resonant Alien wrote:
Shooshie wrote:Bach, on the other hand, had his detractors because he was changing the entire tonal landscape, taking things to extremes that people were unfamiliar with.
Thanks for the correction Shooshie - I thought this anectdote was about Beethoven, but I guess I was mistaken and that it was probably Bach. I had heard this years ago. It was probably true of Mozart as well.

I think there are a couple of tangents going on; if you are talking about calling something great art and lofting it into the rafters to hang with the great artists of the past, then I agree there must be something tangible to back that up - and even that is relative and subjective. OTOH, if you are simply talking about whether this band or that band is "crap", then that is completely subjective and the only opinion that matters is the person who is listening to it. If someone likes Band A and wants to listen to them and gets something from that, then no one else has the right to tell them that they are stupid for doing so.

My wife would not fit the criteria of being a supermodel, but I think she is beautiful - however, someone else might not think she is. Does that mean that I'm naive for thinking so? (Rhetorical question)


Rick
I think it comes back down to what Mr_Clifford said:

Interesting that while it seems to be hard sometimes to distiguish between brilliance and rubbish, it's always relatively easy to spot mediocrity.

Now, this doesn't apply to your wife, of course, but to "art" and "so-called art." (resisting urge to follow the wife tangent... ;))

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Post by Shooshie »

Geez... I KNEW I was going to get in trouble if I made lofty statements based on nothing. Offering no evidence to support my pontifications, I have to conclude that my post from yesterday was pure crap! :D

But I don't think it was. I just didn't have time to fully support it, nor do I really tonight, but what I had in mind was something along the lines of what sdemott said. Certain types of music tend to have greater and more lasting effects upon our brains, and possibly upon our souls as well, if there is such a thing as "soul" that we can measure. (I'm speaking more of the "soul" we refer to in music, not religion) But then again, we have to ask ourselves, on whom were these studies conducted? Did they have more effect on people who have studied Bach? Would the same music have similar effects on monkeys or dogs or cats? Personally, I believe that classical music DOES have a profound effect on people. I've seen it in myself and in my children. I used to tell my kids that studying music seriously will bring them rewards they would never expect, such as better enabling them in math, sciences, arts, literature, and just general living. My daughter always reports the very same thing to me after practicing music a lot. She is amazed by it -- as I am -- for it doesn't seem logical. But there it is: after stretching your mind with Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, and Debussy, suddenly our other abilities seem to have grown as well.

If you take the idea of dissonance to the art world, what does it represent? Let's take Jackson Pollock, since everyone knows his work. It's sort of the "anti-crap." While it appears totally dissonant at first -- no immediately recognizable patterns, no subtle color shades, etc. -- one soon finds one's mind trying to make sense of it. You begin creating patterns where none were intended, as we do with clouds or landscapes far below from a jet plane. Thus, his art forces a confrontation with our senses, and that's probably its chief value. But we don't tend to form a favorite association with any of his works. It's all "Pollock." Very few people know his work well enough to identify different pieces by name. With Monet, however, we all recognize the water lillies or haystacks or cathedral at Rouen, etc., even though they also are quite dissonant, because they retain some natural forms which are recognizable.

Music has natural forms. The simplest is a statement-answer duality which we see in the simplest of phrases in pop songs. The most complex would probably be the polyrhythmic drumming of Africa or India, where phases repeat after hundreds of beats. Or the contrapuntal music of JS Bach where the lines follow rules that evolved over centuries, and were perfected by the master himself. But even that music has a certain artificiality to it. It's not something we easily relate to, and it's not necessarily "beautiful" to our senses. On the other hand, many of his works based on dance forms (his Partitas and Suites, for example) are quite beautiful to a novice upon first hearing, because they DO follow natural forms that seem to come from deep within our psyches rather than arbitrary rules.

I think this is evidence that there actually ARE some natural forms that emanate from deep within us, and when we use them in our music, people resonate to the music in ways that they don't even understand.

When we force arbitrary associations and rules on our art, we may indeed create something that is beautiful to one who has mastered the rules, but the average listener or viewer will not be as inclined to appreciate it. The beauty of music by Beethoven, Mozart, and others is that it attracts our interest and is immediately perceived as beautiful even before we figure out its deeper complexity. Debussy seems to have found an arbitrary world of sound relationships even more mysterious, bordering on dissonance, but always within the bounds of sense.

How different composers approach this cognitive dissonance of Jackson Pollock without losing all connection with the listener's natural inclinations toward aesthetic interest is the story of trying to discern the difference between that brilliance and rubbish. When we find ourselves spending more time trying to explain it than it took to absorb the music itself, one has to wonder whether it's worth it.

I still cling (helplessly and hopefully, perhaps) to the notion that beyond a certain point it DOES become objective, and crap is just crap, no matter how you explain it.

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Post by monkey man »

Resonant Alien wrote:My wife would not fit the criteria of being a supermodel, but I think she is beautiful - however, someone else might not think she is. Does that mean that I'm naive for thinking so? (Rhetorical question) Rick
Not at all. That "someone else" obviously has crap taste. :lol:
Crisp analogy, RA.
Resonant Alien wrote:.. I would be in no hurry to eat monkey brain stew...
Whew!
Resonant Alien wrote:... but in some cultures that is considered a delicacy.
Whoa.. :shock:
chrispick wrote:Wasn't it Carl Sagan who once said, "We are all poop-stuff?" I might be paraphrasing.
Close; I believe it was Carl Pagan. :lol:
Resonant Alien wrote:Would the same music have similar effects on monkeys or dogs or cats?
Just got back from the lab. I was moved. :lol:
The Meister wrote:I still cling (helplessly and hopefully, perhaps) to the notion that beyond a certain point it DOES become objective, and crap is just crap, no matter how you explain it.
I, too, cling for dear life; after all, what would one aspire to/grow towards as an artist if "improvement" wasn't quantifiable, even if the effect on others was the soul ( :D ) criteria involved in making qualitative judgements?

Chrispic, your passion for writing has manifested in some fine posting.
I've found myself shaking my head, yet again, at your eloquence.

I'm somewhat in awe of this discussion.
Thank you ever-so-much for sharing your insights RA, Cliffo, Jimbo, Jim, HCMarkus, daniel.sneed, chrispick, Davo, Spike, Shooshie, resolectric, sdemott, KarlSutton and the twisted one.
Oh, and "good on ya" for starting the thread, rentadrummer. :wink:

Please dont stop, fellas; monkey eagerly anticipates the next episode...

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Post by Jim »

I agree, Nicky, this has been a great (subjective, relative, opinion) thread. Too many excellent points to address individually, as I'm supposed to be editing on a feature, but I'd like to add:

Words are symbols for concepts. Red is a symbol for a visual stimulus/response. Red doesn't exist. In a culture, we tacitly agree what words mean so that we can communicate effectively. If everybody is allowed to create their own definition of what "good" means, then the word doesn't mean anything at all. It's meaningless.

So, if somebody comes along and says that "crap" is "good," then a fairly consensus reaction will generally be to question the intelligence, education, or motive of the person making such a statement.

And since the words "good" and "crap" and their variants are used routinely in any number of disciplines, it follows that there are consensus views of what those words represent.

I could even make a stand that the word people are misusing most is "is." Remember Clinton's famous quote, when under the Ken Starr investigation, "(my answer) depends on what your definition of "is" is." That wasn't as crazy as it sounds, because a lot of people use the word "is" when they really mean "I believe" or "my opinion is." And there can be a huge difference between what "is" and "what one believes" because people's reality can get so distorted.

----

On another note: I believe that the music for the movie Psycho was great. But, it scared the hell out of me. It wasn't pretty or soothing or melodious or beautiful. But it was totally appropriate for the film, and it produced the intended physiological/psychological response in most viewers. So, I can't take a position that the only music that qualifies for greatness is beautiful and uplifting, etc.

But, it's fun to think and talk about, yes? OK, back to work.
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Post by twistedtom »

Jim wrote
I could even make a stand that the word people are misusing most is "is." Remember Clinton's famous quote, when under the Ken Starr investigation, "(my answer) depends on what your definition of "is" is." That wasn't as crazy as it sounds, because a lot of people use the word "is" when they really mean "I believe" or "my opinion is." And there can be a huge difference between what "is" and "what one believes" because people's reality can get so distorted.
Good point.
Lots of good points in this topic when I have time I will have to read it all closer.
.
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Post by James Steele »

Let's ease up on the sex joke/humor on the board, okay? Thanks.
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Post by daniel.sneed »

Just a few words to agree with Jim and perhaps go a little farther.

Music is primarily a living art. Despite of this board object being recording softwares and hardwares, I still consider music that way.

In this kind of thinking, music is all about relationship between performing musician(s) and audience.
What the audience percieves is related to the individual history of each person. Cultural and emotional histories are very different between audiences, and inside any audience as well.

This fact is easy to forget from the musician's point of view.
Sometimes we tend to believe that everyone share the same histories, but then, shure, we are wrong.
To acces to music keys are needed. But some keys are common like radio surounding musics, or nursery rhymes, and others must be searched for a long time, thru long paths.
I believe it does not create a value scale by itself, just describes differents situations between musicians and audience.

To make it clearer, and get to the point, consensus can happen about music, but it can not be a rule.
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Post by Shooshie »

Speaking of music as a living art, one of the cool things we do with our DAWs is to "freeze" that art. I call it "sculpting music." We take something that is alive and moving, and we freeze it in action, like a snapshot at a point in time, and then we can go back and revise, edit, and resculpt it. No generation in history has had the privileges afforded to us. The virtuoso art of music is slowly making its way to the actual sculpting process in the MIDI/VI/audio-recording venues. Where audio engineers once were more "engineers" than musicians, now because of our complex tools, we are creating works of art on disk which may not have a direct correlation to any actual performance of that art in life. So, playing back the disk itself represents the living art resulting from our sculpting process. We are developing virtuosic artists of the DAW.

In a few years, this will be more prevalent and prominent than it is now. There is no changing this. No going back. The arrows of progress point toward that eventuality: sculpted music as an art form. Surprisingly, it did not start with the DAW, but with analog tape and razor blades. Ask Glenn Gould's engineers, for whom 80 splices in a single movement was not an uncommon outcome.

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