Microphones for M/S recording. (area)

[Gibble]

Hello all.

Well, after some extensive research I think I've decided to try the Mid Side technique to record the next batch of recitals. Does anyone have any experience with the Studio Projects C3 microphone? (It does figure of 8 so in theory should be good for the Side component). Is this mic suitable for recording recitals? (sdemott?). As well is there a recomendation for a Mid mic? (I'm considering going to a Hypercardioid, or even a Supercadioid, on this in order to get more focus on the vocalist with the intent on leaving the Side mic for picking up more of the piano). One mic suggested to me was the Rode NTG2.

Thanks again to all of the people here who have helped out with previous questions related to this problem.

Gibble

[resolectric]

I'm not a fan of the M/S results with a combination of Bidirectional plus Hyper/Super cardioid.
I prefer the sound of a Cardioid as a Mid mic. Preferably a wide cardioid if the room sounds good, if not, a normal cardioid.

Hyper or Super cardioid mics tend to have a less even frequency response and also result in a strangeness in the resulting Stereo signal, when combined with the Side channel of an M/S setup. It'll sound as if there's too much M and too much Side information and the parts don't "glue" together, creating a continuous soundstage as required.

Go for a cardioid, and, if possible, a wide pattern cardioid.

Also, the reproduction of the piano's sound, in the case of the recitals you are planning to record, should not be based mainly on the Side information.
If the Piano is center staged it's signal in the S mics will be extremely wide and unnatural. Check for a natural sounding piano on the M channel and balance it with the soloist by properly positioning the M/S setup.

That unnatural wideness of the Piano sound added to a Super/Hyper cardioid mic in the center will probably provide a very unnatural sound stage. As much as the front, central, vocal sound would be focused the piano sound would seem "fractured", to come from an undefined point in space.

I would suggest you use a wide cardioid for the M signal and a good Bidirectional mic for the S and then adjust the focusing of the soloist (vocal, instrument) with the M/S processor.

Check out Voxengo's MSED wich provides adjustment for Mid and Side levels independently of each other. You can achieve more or less vocal and balance them properly with the background piano sound.
Remember though that not all background is S signal. Lots of it must be present in the M channel as well.

Positioning is important with an M/S setup as well, and if it sounds to you that you would have to give too much of the M signal, when compared with the S, try and position the M/S setup nearer the vocalist. If you don't have enough S, pull the setup back.

Then adjust the M/S processor as needed.

[Gibble]

I'm not a fan of the M/S results with a combination of Bidirectional plus Hyper/Super cardioid.
I prefer the sound of a Cardioid as a Mid mic. Preferably a wide cardioid if the room sounds good, if not, a normal cardioid.

Hyper or Super cardioid mics tend to have a less even frequency response and also result in a strangeness in the resulting Stereo signal, when combined with the Side channel of an M/S setup. It'll sound as if there's too much M and too much Side information and the parts don't "glue" together, creating a continuous soundstage as required.

Go for a cardioid, and, if possible, a wide pattern cardioid.

Also, the reproduction of the piano's sound, in the case of the recitals you are planning to record, should not be based mainly on the Side information.
If the Piano is center staged it's signal in the S mics will be extremely wide and unnatural. Check for a natural sounding piano on the M channel and balance it with the soloist by properly positioning the M/S setup.

That unnatural wideness of the Piano sound added to a Super/Hyper cardioid mic in the center will probably provide a very unnatural sound stage. As much as the front, central, vocal sound would be focused the piano sound would seem "fractured", to come from an undefined point in space.

I would suggest you use a wide cardioid for the M signal and a good Bidirectional mic for the S and then adjust the focusing of the soloist (vocal, instrument) with the M/S processor.

Check out Voxengo's MSED wich provides adjustment for Mid and Side levels independently of each other. You can achieve more or less vocal and balance them properly with the background piano sound.
Remember though that not all background is S signal. Lots of it must be present in the M channel as well.

Positioning is important with an M/S setup as well, and if it sounds to you that you would have to give too much of the M signal, when compared with the S, try and position the M/S setup nearer the vocalist. If you don't have enough S, pull the setup back.

Then adjust the M/S processor as needed.

Thanks resolectric

If I understand MS decoding technique properly the greater the signal on the Mid Channel, as compared to the Side Channel, produces a narrower stereo field (image) and conversely the greater the signal on the Side Channel, as compared to the Mid Channel, produces a wider stereo field (image). Is this what the Voxengo's plugin does?

You also mentioned that I should go with a standard Cardioid so as to get a better soundstage. Okay, now if a standard Cardioid was used as the Mid channel could a Supercardioid be added to the mix as a way to bring some emphasis or boost to the vocalist? I would imagine that the Supercardioid, if it could be used in this manner, would be mounted coincident with the main MS pair, brought into its own channel on the mixer and then combined with the MS mix as needed (is this thought going in the right direction?).

Although I understand that some balancing of the vocalists presence is achievable through the positioning of the mic array I am under some restriction as to how close I can get the array, generally speaking I can get within 10-15 feet, but no closer as the array itself can be intimidating for some performers. I've had conversations about this with a number of vocal teachers and although they all want as good a recording as possible they also don't want to frighten off the newer singers. (which I can definitly understand) This is why I am looking for some method to enhance the vocalist when the need arises.

Thanks for all of your wisdom (I am definitely a noobie at this)

Tera

[resolectric]

If I understand MS decoding technique properly the greater the signal on the Mid Channel, as compared to the Side Channel, produces a narrower stereo field (image) and conversely the greater the signal on the Side Channel, as compared to the Mid Channel, produces a wider stereo field (image). Is this what the Voxengo's plugin does?

Correct.

You also mentioned that I should go with a standard Cardioid so as to get a better soundstage. Okay, now if a standard Cardioid was used as the Mid channel could a Supercardioid be added to the mix as a way to bring some emphasis or boost to the vocalist? I would imagine that the Supercardioid, if it could be used in this manner, would be mounted coincident with the main MS pair, brought into its own channel on the mixer and then combined with the MS mix as needed (is this thought going in the right direction?).

You can do that, and provided the mics are properly aligned there shouldn't be any phase issues, but, it stops being a basic M/S system. You are entering in the realm of multitrack/multimic recording.
Remember that M/S main value is it's capability of being used with a two-track recorder and having a better Mono compatibility when compared with most ambiphonic setups.

Anyway, yes, provided all of the above is not an issue (capsule alignment, multitrack recording capability) you can add specific microphones for specific sound sources. Bear in mind, though, that each will add some extraneous sound to tha basic M/S stereo image.
The Supercardioid mic will probably capture some of the background sound from the accompanist's piano. That can be a problem and can destroy part of the natural sound you would obtain with a simple M/S setup.

It would be nice if you could test before commiting to a more complicated setup. Anyway, assuming you are recording to a software DAW (multitrack) you can always create a setup with a track for the S mic, a track for the M mic and extra tracks, as needed, for the extra mics, such as the Supercardioid one. In the end, when you get back to your studio you can always decide wether or not to use the extra mics in the final mix.

Although I understand that some balancing of the vocalists presence is achievable through the positioning of the mic array I am under some restriction as to how close I can get the array, generally speaking I can get within 10-15 feet, but no closer as the array itself can be intimidating for some performers. I've had conversations about this with a number of vocal teachers and although they all want as good a recording as possible they also don't want to frighten off the newer singers. (which I can definitly understand) This is why I am looking for some method to enhance the vocalist when the need arises.

I understand the situation since i face it quite often when working for the local music school, recording just the same type of performance.

When working for my studio, conditions are, fortunately, usually better. Recording in auditoriums, churches or theaters is much "easier" than having to deal with space constraints in school auditoriums, family audiences that want to see their sons/daughters performing without having a full array of metal tripods with hanging mics and cables in front of them. That added to the fact that every accompanist, every performer and the music school directors always want the recordings to sound like Deutsche Grammophone's recordings (or better)... so, it's hard

Still, my suggestion would be to place both mics from the M/S setup in the same tripod, capsules aligned, to reduce the amount of "hardware" between performers and audience. If you decide you need to place a directional Mic in front of the vocalist, for detail, you may have a hard time aligning all the capsules. If they are just a few inches apart you can have a resulting flutter effect, sort of a tubular sound, wich will be extremely hard to solve. You'd have to either cancel the Supercardioid Mic in the final mix or time align the mics with a Delay.
So, if you decide the M/S won't sound natural enough, or the room is not appropriate, go for spot mics; one mic for the vocalist and a pair of mics inside the piano, under the lid.

Still, i believe you'll be amazed at the amount of control you can achieve with a simple M/S setup by simply giving more or less of either M or S mics in the mix.

Thanks for all of your wisdom (I am definitely a noobie at this)
Tera

We're all noobies when we're learning and, though i record professionally since 1979 i'm still learning a lot here, in other forums and every time i go out for recording, so, it's nothing.
I'm glad if i could help you and i'm sure other Forum users will have other techniques and suggestions to provide, and even corrections to what i said.

[sdemott]

I agree - a cardioid is a better choice, when I was suggesting the M/S for focus I was considering a cardioid with a far forward reach. The idea is that you aim the Mid mic right at the singer so they are dead on axis. The simple fact that you have mic aimed at the singer will help accentuate them. The problem with hyper & super cardioids is that they tend to also have an active rear (180 deg.) pickup lobe. This can be problematic in any room that doesn't sound great.

I have to disagree with the wide/sub cardioid in this case...I absolutely love them in a near-coincident array (ORTF, NOS, DIN, et al) but you want more directionality in your case.

I've never tried the Studio Projects mics. In my experience the cheap chinese mics just don't cut it for classical recordings. The cheapest I would go is maybe the Audio-Technica 4050. You'll have to EQ the high end to make it a bit more natural...but I've heard it work. I'm a huge fan of the Schoeps mics...they're pricey, but if you want to play with the big boys you need to have big boy toys.

[Gibble]

I agree - a cardioid is a better choice, when I was suggesting the M/S for focus I was considering a cardioid with a far forward reach. The idea is that you aim the Mid mic right at the singer so they are dead on axis. The simple fact that you have mic aimed at the singer will help accentuate them. The problem with hyper & super cardioids is that they tend to also have an active rear (180 deg.) pickup lobe. This can be problematic in any room that doesn't sound great.

I have to disagree with the wide/sub cardioid in this case...I absolutely love them in a near-coincident array (ORTF, NOS, DIN, et al) but you want more directionality in your case.

I've never tried the Studio Projects mics. In my experience the cheap chinese mics just don't cut it for classical recordings. The cheapest I would go is maybe the Audio-Technica 4050. You'll have to EQ the high end to make it a bit more natural...but I've heard it work. I'm a huge fan of the Schoeps mics...they're pricey, but if you want to play with the big boys you need to have big boy toys.

Hello sdemott

First off I would like to thank you for all of your information. It enabled me to go and talk with the experts at the local stores about this problem and actually be able to understand what they were saying.

You were bang on the mark with the suggestion for using the MS technique as this seems to be the consensus with the other people I've talked to about this problem.

Several have suggested that I try using a secondary mid mic (super or hyper carioid) mounted coincident with the main MS pair so that when needed the secondary mic can be brought in when a weak vocalist is performing so as to put more emphasis on that vocalist. Most of the people that I've talked to seem to think that there may be some merit to this but that experimentation is probably the best way to figure this out.

What a process, there certainly is no simple answer to audio recording questions.

Thanks

Tera

[Gibble]

Well everyone, I think I've got a solution for the mics.

sdemott: Okay I know you don't like these, (Chinese mics) but they are a substantial improvement over what I am currently using and I was able to try them out to see what they sound like. The verdict for the Mid and Side mics is the Studio Projects C3 (two of them).

For a focus mic which will be used to put some emphasis on the younger or less experienced singers I will be trying out the Audio Technica 835B (shotgun mic).

The array will be set up in the following manner:
1) The Side mic (C3) on one mic boom mounted upright and set to figure 8 with the lobes of the 8 set at ninety degrees to the center of the sound stage.
2) The focus mic (AT 835B) mounted just above the first C3 with the mic element coincident with the mic element of the first C3. This mic will be pointed directly at the vocalist and only used when a younger performer is singing.
3) The Mid mic (the second C3) mounted above the first two mics but upside down so as to bring that mics element in as tight as possible with the other two. This mic would be set on cardioid and pointed towards the center of the sound stage.
4) The position of the mic array will be (as mentioned in earlier posts) about 10-15 feet back from the stage.
5) The Mid mic will be recorded to Track 1, The Side mic will be recorded to Track 2 and Track 3 with Track 3 being phase inverted, and the focus mic will be recorded to Track 4. This will allow me to determine if the focus mic is going to work as an emphasis mic without destroying the basic Mid Side recording. Everything will be recorded on DP for editing later.
6) So this leaves one last question. What effect does the height of the array have on the sound? (In other words does the recording change at all if the array is positioned 8 feet above the floor of the stage versus being at 4 feet above the floor of the stage)

Thanks to everyone who has helped out with their advice on this matter, it's been very informative and has taught me a great deal on a non-trivial subject. (sdemott, resolectric)

Gibble

[resolectric]

... The cheapest I would go is maybe the Audio-Technica 4050. You'll have to EQ the high end to make it a bit more natural...but I've heard it work.

Absolutely true.
I have just finished production of a live choral recording, a cappela, about 60 singers in a romanic church, and the setup i've used was: AT4033 as a Mid and AT4050 as a Side.

After bringing the recording to the studio all that was needed was a little bit of EQ on the highs (not that it sounded muffled, on the contrary, it was quite pleasant sounding) to bring just a little bit of "air" from the overall chuch's ambience.

Very nice setup.

...
6) So this leaves one last question. What effect does the height of the array have on the sound? (In other words does the recording change at all if the array is positioned 8 feet above the floor of the stage versus being at 4 feet above the floor of the stage)...

Greater height will reduce the sense of depth, of the singer being in front of the piano. It will flatten it.
Also, if you position the M/S set too high above the singer you'll capture less sibilants and will end with less contoured pronounciation, harder to understand. You'll quite probably need to apply more EQ in the 3Khz to 5Khz to enhance the voice's clarity.

Also, if you position the mics below the singer you'll probably get more of the low freq. sounds from the Piano, and probably not the best "lows". More rumble, and also, you'll loose (again) vocal clarity.

I would start by positioning the M/S setup at head height or just a foot above, in front of the singer. Pulled back for balance but not so much as you loose presence and definition.
It also depends a lot on the distance from the singer to the Piano, but if you get a straight line from the mics to the singer's voice and then to a wide area of the reflective surface from the piano lid, you'll probably get a good sound.

Take a good pair of headphones with you (closed back), so that you can listen properly and choose the best positioning for the mics. An assistant is always nice for that; they can move the setup a few inches everytime while you're carefully listening to changes in sound. But, whatever you do, always compare it with the "real" sound. Don't let yourself be carried away by impressive Stereo. It's not always natural!

[Gibble]

I would start by positioning the M/S setup at head height or just a foot above, in front of the singer. Pulled back for balance but not so much as you loose presence and definition.
It also depends a lot on the distance from the singer to the Piano, but if you get a straight line from the mics to the singer's voice and then to a wide area of the reflective surface from the piano lid, you'll probably get a good sound.

Thanks for this information resolectric, this will definitely help out.

I also noticed your comments regarding working with the two AT mics, 4033 and the 4050. Very nice however they are a bit over what I can spend this time (800+ dollars in Canada for the 4050). Although I realize that the Studio Projects C3 is not in the same class it is a significant jump in quality over what I have used before. The AT will definitely figure in as a possible upgrade down the road. Also I would assume that in order to realize the potential of the AT mics that the preamps would also have to increase in quality (correct or no?)

Considering that my previous set up was all Behringer. (see my signature below the post) The Studio Projects mics along with a new Firewire mixer represent a good increase in quality for me at this time. (I'm not exactly broke however sensibility comes into play here as I'm not producing mass market CD's)

I really do appreciate the input and advice, I'm very thankful for all of the knowledge that you have freely given, please don't think that I am ignoring your comments on the high quality gear that you've mentioned.

Once again thanks

Gibble

[sdemott]

sdemott: Okay I know you don't like these, (Chinese mics) but they are a substantial improvement over what I am currently using and I was able to try them out to see what they sound like. The verdict for the Mid and Side mics is the Studio Projects C3 (two of them).

If that is what you can afford - go for it. They can work - and as you are able to reinvest your profits into new gear you can begin the move to better equipment. Just go a step at a time.

5) The Mid mic will be recorded to Track 1, The Side mic will be recorded to Track 2 and Track 3 with Track 3 being phase inverted, and the focus mic will be recorded to Track 4. This will allow me to determine if the focus mic is going to work as an emphasis mic without destroying the basic Mid Side recording. Everything will be recorded on DP for editing later.

DP has a M/S decoder plugin that expects the M/S mic to be on a stereo track (M on the left S on the right). No need to manually add the inverted polarity track yourself, the plugin will take care of it with minimal hassle.

6) So this leaves one last question. What effect does the height of the array have on the sound? (In other words does the recording change at all if the array is positioned 8 feet above the floor of the stage versus being at 4 feet above the floor of the stage)

A simple way to think of it is: the forward/back adjustments will balance the direct to room sound ratio. Closer to the performers is more direct sound/less room sound and therefore more present. As you pull back you pickup more of the room. Height will adjust the depth of the pickup or the front to back balance of the performers. This is a lot more noticeable when you have a deep group like an orchestra or a 6 row choir. The basic idea being that as you raise the mics you are leveling out the difference in distance between the mics and the first row vs the mics and the last row.

My instinct would be to level the M/S array at neck/chin level of the singer...not right at the mouth or you may get more sibilance than you might like, but not directly at the chest or it may be too undefined. Just over the head would be OK if you weren't fighting the battle of piano vs singer.

HTH

[resolectric]

...
I also noticed your comments regarding working with the two AT mics, 4033 and the 4050. Very nice however they are a bit over what I can spend this time (800+ dollars in Canada for the 4050).

I see, and i understand perfectly.
I've mentioned the AT mics following sdemott's mention of the 4050, and since i've used such a setup less than a week ago it was right on time.

You'll do just fine with the C3, and maybe even with some Behringer mics (i've found a Behringer C2 pair to be acceptable in several situations, though you'd be astonished at how much better a pair of Schoeps or DPAs sound). But they're usable and results can sound ok.
It's just that with better mics it is, in fact, easier to get a good sound.

... Also I would assume that in order to realize the potential of the AT mics that the preamps would also have to increase in quality (correct or no?)

Every single part in the audio chain has a role in improving, or destroying, your sound.
If everything's good, and you work well, you achieve great sound.
Poor mics into a good pre won't allow the pre to show what it could translate, and the opposite is true as well. Good mics, poor pre...

It takes art, time, luck and investment to create a setup where every part fits and allows each of its components to present its best capabilities and, when you find such a setup, you only have to wish for great musicians to play in front of your mics.

...Considering that my previous set up was all Behringer. (see my signature below the post) The Studio Projects mics along with a new Firewire mixer represent a good increase in quality for me at this time. (I'm not exactly broke however sensibility comes into play here as I'm not producing mass market CD's)

You have to invest wisely to create your own studio and make a name for yourself. It all depends a lot on how well you work, on your capabilities and your hearing.

You've mentioned 800 dollars for an AT4050 and i understand why that is an overkill, at least for the moment. In the part of Europe where i live, $800 is a lot more than a regular monthly income, so, i understand completely.

Take a step at a time when investing in your studio. Know your clients and the music market that you're moving in, work the best and as precisely as you can with the gear you have available, get the best sound you can and create a name for yourself. You'll have more clients with time and sooner than you expect you'll have a case full of Neumanns... and still enjoy using the Behringers for that "alt" sound