Making silent CD track transitions on a continuous recording

[prokeds]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but this is my first post, and I'm in a bit of a time crunch to complete a project. Using DP 4.61 on a dual 2.0 G5 tower running 10.4.8, I have a live choral-classical recording (made in DP 4.61 on a 900Mhz G3 ibook) that I want to divide into what will become CD tracks to bounce, and then import into Toast to make the CD master for the client.

My usual practice, once I have mixed down to stereo, done all my editing and mastering, is to merge the bites and then choose spots to re-split it where both L and R channel waveforms are crossing the zero point at the same time. In passages that have only room noise recorded, these points are easy, if a bit time-consuming, to find, and playing across them is always silent.

However, for this project, I have to split the audio during music, as the players played straight into the next song, and every time I try to find a point to split the file, I end up with a click in Toast when I play across the boundary.

There clearly has to be a way to make "click-free" transitions on a master CD when playing continuously recorded live music that will ultimately play across several separate CD tracks, but I don't know it!

Thanks for any assistance. This BB is a great resource!

-Ken

[Siryne]

You could use Index numbers to indicate the separate pieces and make it one large (However Indexed0 track that the listener could go to different sections by using index numbers. i don't know that Toast can do it but i suspect Jam could.
Peace!

[leigh]

This may not be possible using Toast but it may help you figure out a way.

One way I do this with Jam, if the EQ, etc. is the same for all cuts, to bounce one long AIFF of the whole recording. Then I put a marker at each point that I want a new CD track to begin.

Next, I launch Jam and add the long file as many times as there are going to be CD cuts (if there are 12 CD cuts, I add 12 copies of the long file).

Then I adjust the start and end times of each long file to correspond to the markers at the transition points. So a 90-minute long file might have a start time of 80:22:25 and an end time of 85:01:19.

I make the pause between CD Tracks zero seconds so that there are no clicks but a CD player can cue to each cut.

Good luck.

**Leigh

[Tim]

Fade-Ins and Fade-Outs can be added to each split.

One way to do this is, after making all splits change tempo to a lower value so to make space inbetween the splits. Then click to highlight a soundbite and hit Control-F to add short (1-5ms or whatever) fades to the start and end. After all are done, check for click/pops.

[Mr_Clifford]

Maybe you should try actually burning a copy of the CD to see if those clicks appear when played on a CD player. ie. It could be a problem with the way Toast is previewing the audio tracks.

I assume that you've set the pause between tracks to zero seconds.

You might also want to try putting your track breaks on CD 'frame' boundaries. A CD 'frame' is a block of 588 samples (you can set the edit grid in DP to this in the sequence window). For more info see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_(CD) (The link doesn't seem to have translated properly - make sure you add the '(CD)' bit on to the end of the address)

[sdemott]

Yes, be sure your checking that you split at a multiple of 588 samples.

Also - make sure Toast is set to "Prefer Disc-At-Once" (DAO) write mode in the preferences. When using "Track-At-Once" (TAO) you will always get a click regardless of the pre-gap setting because the laser physically shuts off after each track is written. Oh yeah, and turn off the "buffer underrun prevention" option (as this negates the DAO setting when it runs into trouble).

I usually assemble my discs in DSP Quattro and often do what you are describing without any issue. I tend to avoid Toast when there are any "0 pre-gap" settings, as I never quite trusted that it was the best solution.

[beppe]

Perhaps this link helps you:
http://www.a-no-ne.com/music/motu-mac/tip/cd_sequence/

Best Beppe

[magicd]

My understanding is that there is more than one format of audio CD that can be made and played. The type of audio CD that Toast or iTunes makes sees each index point as the start of a new track on the disk. With this type of format, you can't have a seemless audio transition between tracks.

Another format of audio CD is that the disk is a single track, and the index points reference places within that track. My understanding is that this is a Red Book standard disk and is what is pressed when the disk is made commercially.

I use Roxio Jam software to make Red Book disks. Jam makes a proper Red Book disk image. Jam also allows you to add in ISRC codes. If you are making CDs that will get played on the radio, the ISRC code is how the number of plays gets tracked. If you don't have ISRC codes on your CD, you don't get paid for radio spins.

Jam has options for crossfades and spacing. I never use any of that. I do all my pre-mastering in DP.

I have a project that I'm just finishing off now. It's a 9 song CD. In my DP session file I have 9 sequence chunks for the individual songs. When I have mixes of each song that I like, I bounce to a 24 bit stereo file. I choose the option to import the bounced file into the Soundbites window.

When I've bounced all the tracks I create a new sequence chunk that has a single stereo audio track. I know of another mastering engineer who uses a separate stereo audio track for each song. Either technique will work.
I open an Event Edit List window for the audio track. I open the Soundbites window and view by date created. I go to the bottom of the list, select all my 24 bit mixes and drag them into the Event Edit List. The soundbites drop in in the order in which they were in the Soundbites window. They are butted up against each other in the stereo audio track.

Now I open the Sequence Editor. I do whatever trimming to the mixes I want. I space the soundbites so that if I play the track continuously, I have the timing I want. You can see how you might want to use separate audio tracks for each mix in case you want fade-ins and fades-outs. That's just a matter of preference.

I may use automation. I do use a Masterworks Limiter. On the CD I'm finishing now, I've automated the Threshold control in the MW Limiter to get even volume across all the songs. I set the MW Limiter for 16 bit and dithering. You could use a Master Fader or you could just put the Limiter on the stereo audio track insert.

This is the point that you want to be able to press play and listen to what the finished CD should sound like from beginning to end. What you hear at this point is what you're going to hear on the final pressed disk.

Now select the entire sequence chunk and bounce to disk. Choose the bounce option for 16 bit and Add To Sequence.
A new stereo audio track will be created and there will be one long stereo file in that track that represents the sum total of your CD.

Get out the Tool Palate (or learn the key commands). Use the scissors tool to make cuts in the stereo audio track where you want the CD index points to be. DP 5 also has a new Roll tool which is excellent for adjusting the split point between two soundbites. You can make cuts anywhere you want with no affect on playback. If you wanted to put a CD index point in the middle of the song, you could certainly do that.

Now you have the stereo audio track with multiple soundbites that represent the track index points of your CD. Since you already did all the crossfades and spacing on the original stereo track in the Sequence, the soundbites in the new stereo track are butted against each other with no gaps or additional crossfades.

Now name each of the newly created soundbites. Do this by Option-clicking on the soundbite name in the Sequence Editor.

Open the Soundbites Window. At the bottom of the list you will see the soundbites you just renamed. Select these soundbites and choose Export from the Soundbites window mini-menu. I export as AIFF format.

If you now drop these AIFF files into Jam software and set the preference for zero gap between tracks, Jam will burn a CD with no audio gaps between the tracks. If you had split a song in the middle to make two index point references (and therefore separate AIFF files), those tracks will play back to back and you won't hear any glitch or gap in the song.

My experience is that if you drop these files into iTunes or Toast you can not have a seemless gap between tracks.

If you do serious CD mastering work or just need index points with no glitches, I recommend Jam software.

Magic Dave

[gregwhartley]

Damn, magicd! Outstanding post! Thank you for your insight! This should be a sticky or a how-to, or something!

[michkhol]

My understanding is that there is more than one format of audio CD that can be made and played. The type of audio CD that Toast or iTunes makes sees each index point as the start of a new track on the disk. With this type of format, you can't have a seemless audio transition between tracks.

..Skipped..

I successfully burned seamless audio CDs in iTunes. Just make sure you cut your soundbites at 588 samples boundary:
0. Have your 16bit 2 channel master ready as a stereo audio file loaded into DP.
1. Set the editing grid to 588 samples.
2. Cut your master at desirable spots (see the previous post from Magic Dave).
3. Move the boundary between two soundbites slightly with Roll tool and Apple key pressed. It will snap to the closest editing grid. Make sure you have enough zoom.
4. Export the resulting soundbites to a directory as separate files in desirable format.
4. If burned with iTunes, set the pause between songs to zero.

If you don't cut at the 588 boundary, iTunes, Roxio, etc. just insert some padding which you hear as clicks. For professional use you might consider BIAS Peak (indexes, pauses with playback and negative countdown, etc.). Hope it helps.

[daniel.sneed]

I have burned some continuous multitcut CD in Toast with succes.
Just cut on zerocrossing points in DP. Zooming down to sample to be shure. Chose points where both L and R tracks reach 0.

[spirit]

Touch wood-bouncing mixes from a continuous live track with exact (using markers to set the end of one song/beginning of next) butting from one to another seems to have worked in the past without pops or clicks being noticed after the tracks are burned to CD using Toast. Not even looking for zero crossings (shouldn't the waveform be at the same place after as before as long as you have changes occur in the mix via automation after the split point)? Unless writing about it jinx's this procedure perhaps it's worth a try?
Maybe it's different doing this at the mix/bounce stage rather than splitting a stereo existing mix?

Good luck.

[daniel.sneed]

If I remember well :
cutting on zerocrossing points allows engaging play at any track number with no click nor pop.

[tw_247]

this is a great thread! thanks everybody.

[gtsoundcrew2]

Using Markers, clicking individual "song" markers to select for BTD. Burning with toast.. set to "0 seconds" gaps... Always smooth here. I use this all the time to bounce complete end to end live shows and have never heard any artifacts on the final cd. Works for me.. Crude but effective.