Why isn't anyone moving from DP to PT or Logic?

lwilliam · Post by **lwilliam** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:19 pm

I'm finding it very curious that there are threads in various forums and boards about:

Giving up on "x" app and moving to Logic
Giving up on "y" app and moving to DP

(Often x and y are ProtoolsLE, but sometimes are Cubase)

But I don't see any 'Giving up on DP and moving to "x app"'.

I know why I keep exploring it: PTLE is too constrained and crippled compared to it's big brother, HD; Logic is very buggy and clumsy with audio, and I have the latest versions: PTLE 7.3 and LogicPro 7.2.3.

Why do you suppose that is? I hope it's not just a small market share keeping complaints down...or have I just missed the thread?

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:33 pm

Some people move from DP to other DAW apps. You see that happen around here from time to time. Some just take on additional app to fill out their needs (e.g., DP plus Logic).

For me, DP suits all needs so far. Other people have different experiences.

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:46 pm

not everyone makes "the dramatic announcement" either...every now and again, i see mention of "i'd used dp, and now use logic, or pt, or metro"

every now and again, you see users jump ship for pc and whatever software, too. don't spend too much time looking...in most places, dp seems to be pretty well regarded, all things considered. not too many active motu/dp bashers like there are for pt...

noisetree · Post by **noisetree** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:40 pm

I‘m happy with DP,but Logic sounds very nice.
I think PT is a myth(because DP and Logic sounds better to me)despite being a very good audio editor.This is only my opinion but I am open to other opinions.
noisetree

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:42 pm

The people who tend to post here are most likely DP users, or in some ways MOTU users. While some have stated that they are setting DP aside for another DAW, it is highly unlikely that on a DP forum you would find those who have moved on to continue posting here.

Iwilliam wrote:...Logic is very buggy and clumsy with audio...

Interesting. Of all my personal complaints about Logic, how it handles audio is easily my biggest praise of it. I've yet to find anything concrete to support that it sounds better than DP-- I even did a a project in DP with VIs, edited the sequence with MIDI note and velocity data only, ran it out as an audio using the same hardware. Nothing was done with the Mixer or FX plugs. Then I imported the project into Logic, loaded up the same VIs and ran it out as audio. The two mixes were essentially identical-- when played in a blind test at a friend's studio. It was only after several listenings over 30 minutes when any perception of any differences were forced and never fully confirmed. It boils down to a matter of taste.

I do think that Logic's audio engine is somehow more efficient than those of other apps I've used on the Mac platform. I can load more VIs into Logic than I can inside DP, but working with VIs after they're loaded is a bumpy ride from the standpoint of Logic's GUI compared to DP's-- but that's just me.

One can also get two mixes out of the same DAW that sound quite different without trying too hard, but we can only use our ears despite what white papers and numerical readouts my tell us. I've not been able to trace any differences in sound to the apps themselves rather than to the different ways they are put to their tasks. Given that there *can be* differences in the sound of any two apps, the point has always been whether the mixes sound great.

I have both Logic and DP and use them both, but DP's workflow feels more natural and allows me to work faster. I simply think less about DP when using it than I do when working with Logic. But at least for all that DP and Logic have to offer, I'm happy to have the best of both apps available.

I've never owned PT (only used it at someone else's studio). The LE version was never appealing to me, and reports of DAE issues and importing/exporting projects were enough to encourage me not to go in that direction. I would LOVE to have an HD|3 setup, but it's painfully expensive and ultimately not really necessary for what I'm doing. My needs have more to do with the management of virtual instruments, and DP/Logic do what I need them to do with perhaps more finesse on the MIDI instrument side than PT has previously been known for.

Nuendo has caught my eye for purposes of post production work. It does have features I wish DP had, but there is no DAW that doesn't have its own issues. If one is planning to switch DAWs for the sake of certain features and functionality, it makes sense to also be aware of the trade-offs. There are bugs, quirks, and compatibility issues with everything out there-- and I dare say that *some* PT users insist that PT HD works way better for them on a custom-built PC than it does on a Mac. I can't speak first hand of this, but I've heard this statement enough times to have been discouraged from investing in PTHD. I'm less eager to delve into PC world as a front end-- so at least for the foreseeable future my next computer(s) will be Intel-Macs.

No matter, it is essential to choose the app first and the hardware second. Find out what the app does and doesn't do-- if it suits your style of working, if it offers the features and functionality you require. The second step is to assemble the hardware to accommodate that app. There's nothing worse than buying an app based upon enticing ads only to find that your computer and hardware are not up to the task.

I love DP, and for all the improvements I'd like to see transpire with it, it's working very well right now-- so well that I'll stick with it as it continues to improve upon itself.

lwilliam · Post by **lwilliam** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:01 pm

I wasn't specific enough on what I've been seeing around the boards...

On Apple's Logic forum, there's a thread about leaving PT for Logic.
On the Logic forum here, there's a thread about leaving Logic for Live, and another thread about coming from Protools to Logic. I wasn't expecting anyone here to post they were dropping DP for another app. That would be more likely in another app's forum.

Here are three things that make it extremely difficult for me in Logic (and I admit I'm pretty new at Logic):

1. You can't do a clean punchin/out with audio in the Replace mode - which is pretty much the "normal" punchin/out mode that emulates tape. Replace mode will not cleanly open up a gap in the existing region based on the autodrop boundaries. The region just prior to the one where you've punched in will overlap (even if you have it set to "no overlaps"). If you then click on the region right before your punch, that region "overlays" the region you just punched and you have to drag the region end back to where you punched in. I have a set of key commands that can get around this, but why can't Logic do a clean autodrop punch like every other app out there. DP and PTLE both do this just fine.

2. You cannot set your nudge in milliseconds. I'm used to that in PTLE and I can do it in DP. You can set it to SMPTE frames, or to ticks, but not milliseconds. I set mine to 5 or 10 ms usually.

3. On the MIDI side, you can't shorten a MIDI region from the front. You have to cut it. That's ridiculous. When you do it, it still plays the notes that are no longer showing. It shouldn't allow you to shorten from the front if it doesn't work that way - or it should just work like DP or PT and be able to shorten a region from either end.

Don't even get me started with the environment and multi-timbral synths...that should all be built in, just like DP and PT.

I bought DP about a year ago, but could never get it working with my 002R. Digi's Core Audio would constantly trash it so I never dug into it deeply. However, the latest (7.3) CAM seems to work OK with it although I can't clock to my RME (only internal clocking). Once I got my 002R working with DP, I was up and running (slowly) in a few hours. It's a much easier transition from PTLE. I'll probably upgrade to 5.11 in the next month or so, but there IS a lot to like about DP. I'll be reviewing the manual (and I also have the Ben Newhouse tutorial) over the next couple of weeks.

The main things I like about Logic is that a LOT of people seem to be using it, and it comes with a lot of ready-to-go plugins. No need to buy a Waves Platinum bundle - or even Toast/Jam since it comes with Waveburner. There are just some workflow issues and bugs (see above) that need to be addressed before I'd be comfortable with it.

I couldn't comment on whether DP or Logic sound better. However, I've noticed that Logic seems to hit the master bus harder than PT and DP, meaning that if I put an L1 on the master in Logic, I only have to have the threshhold down a couple of db, whereas in PT or DP, I end up lowering the threshhold 6-8db to get the same amount of limiting. I'm not consciously changing anything engineering-wise that I know of, but that just seems to be case.

Logic IS very CPU efficient compared to DP or especially PTLE. The Apple developers know all the tricks of working well with the OS. Digidesign doesn't have a strong incentive to make the "poorer cousin" CPU efficient if they can talk you into upgrading to HD.

The people on this board have been really exceptional with their help for newbie questions - and more advanced ones. I'm definitely not an audio engineering newbie (just for DP) and I like helping out in those areas where I do have knowledge.

Everyone have a nice holiday!

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:44 pm

I haven't read through the very detailed replies above, however I think you can safely say that there is a steady direction away from Pro Tools. I'm not sure about Logic. For me it was a careful decision between DP and Logic (as an expansion - not replacement of Pro Tools), which was an obvious choice after about a day thinking about it. Many, many users are moving away from Pro Tools and Digidesign because of their restrictive hardware policies, ridiculous cost justification and yeah, just being bastards really. I can't say I feel sorry for them, although I still need to use Pro Tools a lot for work. I think Nuendo users and more recently Pyramix (a Windows only app that is pretty impressive) are more often than not ex-Pro Tools guys who got jack of it and voted with their feet. Why not? I was one Ebay bid away from Nuendo 2 the other day and the more I think about it, moving entirely away from Pro Tools in the future is a definite possibility. For starters a facility I work at often has just about phased out Pro Tools entirely (and Macs to my dismay!).

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:06 pm

Phil:

I found it quite interesting that you, without going over all the details of the previous posts, nailed it on the head. I also found it most intersting that Logic and DP often go head-to-head in ways that Cubase does not... at least not at this time.

Further, it seems that Nuendo is establishing itself as a viable alternative to PT on the Mac. I'm still curious about this app, although my previous dealings with Steinberg left me quite sour and sent me flying/crying to MOTU some 10-11 years ago where I've been ever since; and quite content, if I may add. Perhaps things have changed at Steinberg over the years. Nuendo's features alone stand as evidence that someone at Steinberg is addressing some VERY serious DAW needs.

PT and cost? It's a no-brainer. If you're the kind of person who enters and wins the lottery once a month, or if you are yanking down Lucasfilm-type bread that affords whatever hardware requirements Digidesign insists its users have, then PT is no problem. Still, there is at least one *extremely* trustworthy U-nation member who has good reasons for not using PT on the Mac platform (opting for a custom PC build)-- and there are tons of good reasons others have cited for NOT using DP as a front end for PT, despite MOTU's claims. Granted, all of this is improving, but pro users need things that *work* rather than things which are only *trying* to work.

For me, DP is doing what it needs to do. I've lived through DP's darker days, and while there are a number of issues I'd still like to see resolved, I am quite happy with where DP is now.

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:25 pm

Hi Frodo, I like that you've gone to a more purist Hobbit avatar...

Yes, DP is a fantastic app. I guess it just depends on what you need a DAW to do. Nuendo has been tailored for post production use, and in many ways blows Pro Tools out of the water in terms of feature set, as yes obviously price when related to HD.

You know, I think it's beyond price also. There are a lot of major facilities that can easily afford and justify the cost of Pro Tools HD Accel 3 and all the bells and whistles that are changing to Nuendo, Pyramix and even Logic for post production needs. Nuendo have teamed up with Euphonix to make some killer large format consoles and Pyramix have done similar things with tried and tested brands like Cedar.

With Digidesign, one can't help but think that corporate greed is to blame. They don't collaborate really, but they acquire. Their relationship with Mackie and Focusrite has ended and I think that corporate charter will cost them in the end. Like a friend of mine said a while ago 'they've had it too good for too long'.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:02 pm

Like Phil, I haven't spent a lot of time reading this thread. I'm not sure why we compare. It's not like I'm going to switch. There was a time when each release of DP seemed worse than the last, and I seriously gave thought to switching to Logic, but decided that since I have hundreds of DP files with carefully crafted tempos and dynamics and special mixes, etc., I just would prefer to stay with what I have and wait for it to get better. With 5.11, it did. So, I'm happy. THe world can all move to NueLogiAciProtoolBaseCube for all I care, but it's their loss. I have what I like, and I wish all could have it so good.

I spend most of my time making music, rather than recording it, but when it gets down to the recording of it, there are certain things I want that I worked a lifetime to know how to get, and DP allows me to produce that. Why move away from it just to record? It would be senseless. I'm no dummy, so I could probably get the audio I want from any of the others, too, after I learned their systems. But why? I get what I want with DP. And DP is king of MIDI, as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't be here if DP made me sacrifice musicality in any way. It always allows me to get what I want, ultimately, within the limits of the medium, of course (and MIDI still ain't live music, though it's pretty darned close).

But I know the comparisons are always going to be with us. I think ultimately we should just make music and be happy with what we make. If we aren't, then we should try something else, assuming that our musical skills aren't the problem.

Shooshie

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:12 pm

Hi, sure I totally understand. I find it quite daunting learning new apps, but have sort of given in to it with everything changing so often. Nuendo has come up for me several times. Basically when there's an opportunity to grab a copy I will (second hand or whatever). I'm still learning on DP after a whole year (although I use Pro Tools 90% of the time at the moment). I've been using Pyramix at work a lot, as well as playing with Peak Pro and Sound Forge also. It will be the same for me learning Final Cut Pro and Avid Media Composer enough to offer technical support on a system I wish to put together. I guess I'm keeping a finger in a few different pies for now. Cheers, Phil

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:17 pm

Nothing wrong with that, Phil. I'm just at a point in my life which lots of musicians describe. That point where practice is pointless unless you've got a concert date to target. I've lost the spark I used to have for new software. Rather than wanting to explore the menus and dialogs, I just want to get "home" to DP and get something done.

Film/video is another matter. I'd love to have a Final Cut Pro rig, but I need a good camera first, and I just can't mortage the house right now. I'd sure play around with that. But without a professional reason to, it's just too expensive a hobby for me. I need to win the lottery.

Shooshie

tommymandel · Post by **tommymandel** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:39 pm

shooshie's:
" I think ultimately we should just make music and be happy with what we make. If we aren't, then we should try something else, assuming that our musical skills aren't the problem."
says a whole lot..

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:52 pm

Shooshie wrote:...... I'm just at a point in my life which lots of musicians describe. ... I've lost the spark I used to have for new software. Rather than wanting to explore the menus and dialogs, I just want to get "home" to DP and get something done.

Welcome to middle age (and Middle-earth)!! I'm only half kidding.

We do get a point when starting over becomes more trouble than its worth. It really takes a mega-disaster before folks "our age" will make a complete and total change from anything ranging from DAWs to the type of motor oil we use. My father, for example, went kicking and screaming from rotary phones to touch tone-- couldn't see the need for the change-- just felt different to him, not better.

Touch tone *is* better than rotary-- and a Jaguar is *better* than a Saturn, no doubt. The question is how much or how little the user needs to take care of business. If both vehicles serve the purpose of getting you to the post office and the grocery store, then one of them will likely be overkill.

Same with DAWs and middle-agers. We waited a long time for Macs to go over the 1Ghz mark, and for most of us who've matured with DP and Macs for the past decade or more are probably more impressed with what can be done right now than a newcomer might be.

We're at the threshold of 3Ghz now and, to some extent, at a point of dimishing returns of a sort. 32-bit virtual instruments may get some performance bump on the newer machines, but they still top out at the same 2.5-3GB mark they did on their G3/G4 forerunners. Virtual Memory remains the unavoidable RAM police until software goes 64-bit.

So-- in the meantime, making music makes the most sense as a great way to pass the time until such time we find a need to switch platforms. Long before we became so reliant on computers, we were musicians first and foremost. We played a musical instrument-- as opposed to a device which only behaved musically. The computer is an extension of or is in addition to whom we are as musicians-- and not a replacement for that keyboard, sax, drum set, manuscript paper, guitar, or visceral vision which occupied our time and attention for so many hours back in paleozoic days before even the 64k machines were even thought of.

I still love learning new things and hope to never stop doing so in an effort to keep an open mind. But like so many others, I stick with DP as my pack mule and work horse because it has all the comforts of home. I may still be getting Nuendo as my post production needs dictate, but so far, DP does it for me no matter what other DAW may or may not be in house.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:31 am

I am a long time DP guy, however , I have thought about switching to logic many times. I am always keeping an eye on that program but I really dont want to start from scratch, I am a very very advanced DP user so I'd be turned into a sequencer beginner again..

I have the clear impression that as far as music producers go, which is mainly what I am, DP is not that highly regarded.

Logic and Pro Tools are considered the best "music producer" programs, though some might argue this.

I am very well versed in Pro Tools also, having an HD4 system, and can tell you that Pro Tools is more precise in it's editing and displays db's when editing in many windows in a much better way than DP. When I sit with production partners and they ask for a 1 db cut on a snare in a verse, I can do stuff like that so much faster and more accurately in Pro Tools.

If you edit plug ins in Pro Tools, they feel better. more precse. In Pro Tools, you can hear a .2 db change in an eq much more easily than in DP where it feels like big, gross movements are needed to manipulate audio, not always, but in general this is what I feel with DP as compared to Pro Tools.

If I could snap my fingers and be as good at logic as DP, I think I'd switch in a heartbeat...

In general, I am happy with DP, sometimes thrilled, but I know logic is more cutting edge, has better vi's and fx, and is getting very convenient with it's pre fabbed templets...DP has some nice thigns too like it's pitch alogorthm. If DP could make it;s pitch changing sound better it would go a looong way to making me stay. I like Dp's beat detection a lot.

However, If logic gets much better, I may still switch..for now, I stay..

If motu really wants me to stay forever, it has to make DP MORE efficient

More efficient and start employing some of the best of Pro Tools editing advantages and I'd be thrilled.