Should I move to DP? I am using Logic but external MIDI

[pmumble]

Hi all,

I was hoping some of you could help me out. I'm currently a Logic Pro user but am having a really bad time using my external MIDI synths in Logic alongside soft synths. It seems Apple is really beginning to not care about people with external gear and they just want people to use the built in softsynths. They're nice synths, but I want to have good integration with my external synths too.

How well does DP deal with integrating external MIDI synths into the workflow? The main issue I'm having in Logic is that the timing of MIDI synths playing along side softsynths is not very good. They're usually early, and the MIDI clock doesn't work very well. Also, if you want to monitor through Logic in software (to use plugins etc), things get really hard to figure out latency wise.

I'm just tired of struggling with this puzzle and am looking for a sequencer that I can build my songs in using both internal and external instruments with timing accurate enough for the kind of music I want to create (psytrance). I need really tight timing and I need my external recorded audio to line up perfectly with softsynth audio.

Can DP do this for me? I looked into Cubase but I don't think it's all its cracked up to be for Mac users.

I am currently using a MOTU 828mkII audio interface and will soon also have a 24i/o to use with device aggregation under Tiger.

For MIDI I have an emagic AMT8.

Last of all, I have a Logic Control and XT (Mackie Control). It's vital that I can use this as well. Does DP support it?

Thanks to anyone who can help me out here. I really love Logic but their lack of care for people with hardware rigs is really making me look elsewhere.

[pmumble]

Ok, I finally found the blurb that states I can use my Mackie Control with DP, so that answers that.

What I really need to know is whether external MIDI device audio will line up well next to softsynths and recorded audio. Does anyone have any experience in this domain? I'd really appreciate any help here, I don't know anyone locally that has the software and it's a pretty big sum of money.

This is the only community I could find for DP.

[emulatorloo]

Originally posted by pmumble:
Ok, I don't know anyone locally that has the software and it's a pretty big sum of money..

Somebody will step up to the plate for you regarding softsynth/audio/hardsynth timing I'm sure -- I'm happy w my set up (mostly hardware, some softsynths), but my needs are maybe simpler than yours so I am not going to address it. I will tell you that DP provides you w tools to calibrate you audio system and tools to deal with plug in latency, etc etc.

However I did want you to be aware if you aren't that MOTU offers a competitive crossgrade for logic users -- I saw it for 329 over at zzounds.com, no doubt similar pricing with all the usual suspects.

[buddhabelly]

As far as monitoring goes, no matter which software package you use, if you monitor through the software, there will be latency.

As far as timing is concerned, you need to work out the record offset (time it takes for your converter to convert the audio to digitaL) so that things line up. Again, you need to calibrate it with ALL software packages.

[Megher]

exactly.

anyway, i use dp4.5 with mackie babyhui without problem..

p.s. and logic with ext hardware too...

[billf]

Originally posted by pmumble:
Hi all,

I was hoping some of you could help me out. I'm currently a Logic Pro user but am having a really bad time using my external MIDI synths in Logic alongside soft synths. It seems Apple is really beginning to not care about people with external gear and they just want people to use the built in softsynths. They're nice synths, but I want to have good integration with my external synths too.

How well does DP deal with integrating external MIDI synths into the workflow? The main issue I'm having in Logic is that the timing of MIDI synths playing along side softsynths is not very good. They're usually early, and the MIDI clock doesn't work very well. Also, if you want to monitor through Logic in software (to use plugins etc), things get really hard to figure out latency wise.

I'm just tired of struggling with this puzzle and am looking for a sequencer that I can build my songs in using both internal and external instruments with timing accurate enough for the kind of music I want to create (psytrance). I need really tight timing and I need my external recorded audio to line up perfectly with softsynth audio.

Can DP do this for me? I looked into Cubase but I don't think it's all its cracked up to be for Mac users.

I am currently using a MOTU 828mkII audio interface and will soon also have a 24i/o to use with device aggregation under Tiger.

For MIDI I have an emagic AMT8.

Last of all, I have a Logic Control and XT (Mackie Control). It's vital that I can use this as well. Does DP support it?

Thanks to anyone who can help me out here. I really love Logic but their lack of care for people with hardware rigs is really making me look elsewhere.

I have a bunch of external synths run via MIDI, a Radikal SAC2-k, and softsynths. In my experience, DP is far superior to Logic in making it all run. I like Logic for certain things, but I've found that for external MIDI integration Logic sucks raw eggs.

[vbassguy]

I had a Long hard look at Logic recently while engineering at another studio.... DP all the way....

[pmumble]

Hey guys I really appreciate the replies.

I am aware that all audio cards have a recording delay. I have measured this in samples by looping back a recorded sound and have put that in the preferences of Logic, and I am calculating my instruments individual average delays in samples and plugging that in per track. Regardless, there is still MIDI jitter.... lots of it. I don't know if it's my AMT8, or Logic, or what...

If I was to pick up DP, do you guys think that I would get better MIDI timing by using a MOTU MIDI interface over an AMT8?

[ricebean]

i use dp 4.52 and motu mtp/av usb with two ensoniq keyboards, carnaval, roland jv1080, 2 adats, audio trks recorded thru 2408 mk1. no timing problems, perfect sync.sample accurate, great MIDI editing.

make sure transmit sync to is off otherwise you will get MIDI loop.

hope this helps

[Akai96]

Originally posted by pmumble:
Hey guys I really appreciate the replies.

I am aware that all audio cards have a recording delay. I have measured this in samples by looping back a recorded sound and have put that in the preferences of Logic, and I am calculating my instruments individual average delays in samples and plugging that in per track. Regardless, there is still MIDI jitter.... lots of it. I don't know if it's my AMT8, or Logic, or what...

If I was to pick up DP, do you guys think that I would get better MIDI timing by using a MOTU MIDI interface over an AMT8?

Yes,Motu Interfaces work better with DP.
And,Yes I Use softsynths and external synths together,and the timming is right on!
Depending on the amount of samples per buffer also though ;)My music is complex, and dp handels it Very well.Especcially when the PPQ IS set to the highest setting.

[pmumble]

Just curious Jason (or anyone else),

What buffer setting are you running at? I've been running at 256 in logic (with a 828mkII).

I'm getting MIDI jitter of over 130 samples. At 44.1 samples per millisecond, that is over 3ms...(not good imho)

What about you guys?

ricebean, what do you mean by sample accurate? You mean there is no jitter at all if you zoom into the exact downbeat of a recorded MIDI part?

<small>[ June 08, 2005, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: pmumble ]</small>

[Megher]

great!

[Akai96]

Originally posted by pmumble:
Just curious Jason (or anyone else),

What buffer setting are you running at? I've been running at 256 in logic (with a 828mkII).

I'm getting MIDI jitter of over 130 samples. At 44.1 samples per millisecond, that is over 3ms...(not good imho)

What about you guys?

ricebean, what do you mean by sample accurate? You mean there is no jitter at all if you zoom into the exact downbeat of a recorded MIDI part?

I'm Using either 128 or 64 Samples per buffer,Makes a great differnece,but that with a high ppq makes a gigantic differnce,as the soft synths respond different than hardware synths.

<small>[ June 08, 2005, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Jason Gaines ]</small>

[Akai96]

O,I also use the 828

[ricebean]

[ricebean, what do you mean by sample accurate? You mean there is no jitter at all if you zoom into the exact downbeat of a recorded MIDI part?]

rec MIDI as audio can send back to and from adats and it stays accurate due to sync cable with adats and pci 324 card.