Why I switched to Logic after using DP for 15 years

[spurn]

I am a professional composer doing scoring for TV in NYC and have used DP every day of my life for the past 15 years (in fact, I think when I first bought it, "Digital" Performer didn't yet exist... Performer was just a MIDI sequencer). I recently was hired to do a labor intensive project for the Discovery Channel and was having trouble keeping up with my deadlines. I rent studio space in a building in Manhattan that is shared by other composers and when I saw in their rooms what Logic was capable of on the same hardware I was struggling with DP on I made the switch and I AM SO GLAD I DID.

Please don't misunderstand me; I love DP; I used it EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE FOR YEARS, but quite simply, Logic runs so much more efficiently on my Mac that I am willing to overlook some of its deficiencies compared to DP (and there are many, especially in the realm of audio editing). And don't even get me started on how fantastic Logic's virtual instruments are (and how much better third party virtual instruments run under Logic than DP). Anyone like myself who has watched their CPU meter spike on a dual processor G5 with 4 Gigs of RAM WITH NO AUDIO PLAYING under DP knows how bloated and unwieldy MAS has become. As a professional whose living depends on software I felt that I had to read the writing on the wall...now that Logic is owned by Apple it will always have a leg up in terms of compatibility with changes to their hardware and the OS. And have you ever noticed how ads for third party native DAW-related hardware and software in music mags tout their compatability with Logic and Nuendo, but rarely DP?

I'm not trying to piss people off; I'm just sharing my real world experience from the trenches.. there have been a lot of posts here lately about how MAS needs a serious re-write. I just got tired of waiting and am glad I made the switch.

What say ye? Flame away...

[blue]

i'm curious. why, if you've made the switch with such success, do you feel the need to visit this land of the left behind? i don't ask this with rancor, just curiosity.

i, for one, have not seen any real improvements in logic in terms of efficiency since apple bought it. in fact, if anything, it seems more buggy.

that said, i would love for motu to optimize dp. inefficiency is the only thing that bothers me about the app, but the efficiency i retain as a user of a well-designed music program outweighs the sheer amount of horsepower gained from using something as poorly conceived as logic's user interface.

[giles117]

I use both

[lloydcole]

I suppose this is what forums are for so, very quickly, here's my story.

I switched from Logic to DP at the beginning of last year, 3 months into an album project that I had hoped would nearly be over by then. I switched because Logic was so unstable it was completely unusable.

I had just bought a new dual 2 gig G5 for the project with 5 Gig RAM, dedicated audio drive, dedicated sample drive etc.... DP (4.5 on 10.3something to start with) seemed remarkably reliable in comparison and I had very few crashes in the first few months. Unfortunately the longer I worked the more problems I encountered.

The notes disappearing in the drum editor was pretty much the deal breaker. At first I loved this editor. I still do if it worked. After months of working on songs to know that when one goes back to do any tweaking of drum parts, one has then to listen to the whole track in solo to be sure nothing has disappeared is disheartening to say the least. In 4.5 the MAS engine/bugs issues got so awful that if I wanted to mix down a song to a dedicated track, just putting the track in record could take a minute or so.. and this wasn't the case at first, it could have been related to the size of the project and I believe was later recognised as a 4.5 bug.. switched to 4.61 and crashes are more frequent, CPU spikes possibly worse, but I can at least make a mix in a minute or two. I'd have song that was going smoothly and all CPU meters looked OK, Activity monitor OK, load Ivory... crash. I started using Kontakt pianos whaich I don't like as much.

Now I'm close to the end of the project I had a file just freak out on me and lose a bunch of active stuff when compacting.. Yes, in was backed up but that was yet more time taken. And now when I'm preparing files to export soundbites I find that muliple songs/files are seeing soundbites that they shouldn't and complaining that they don't have them.. when merging soundbites I get a message telling me that something is missing or in the background - should I ignore it? I know nothing is missing.. I'm literally crossing my fingers until I get the files exported.
Whatever I use on my next project I'm afraid it won't be DP (4.x) and I don't think I could bear to look at Logic ever again. My mixing engineer tells me PT 7 is great..

I'm not posting this to get into any kind of debate A vs B etc. There is so much to like in DP, but bugs that have been ignored for years.. I don't understand that.

[TheCoalman]

Take a look at Cubase SX3........I have a couple of friends that use it and they swear by it. I've never really had many problems with DP other than its so stinkin' slow, unfortunately like many others, who has the time to keep learning new programs when you're constantly working......

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I cannot see why anyone would flame you for prefering one sequencer to another. But worse things have happened online

I cannot quite put my finger on it, but something about Apple owning Logic bothers me a bit. It certainly gets great marks in reviews and from users, but would it be so good wihtout competition from folks like MOTU and DigiDesign? And is Apple REALLY comitted to the DAW future? Or to a loop based market that feeds its iTunes store? Rhetorical question, you don't have to answer that.

Look at a couple of the specialty software titles Apple has produced ON ITS OWN: Appleworks (no it doesn't) and WORK (at your own risk). I just cannot get behind Apple as a dedicated manufacturer of DAW. I do not think they will be as innovative and dedicated as companies like MOTU and Digidesign in the long haul. And I don't believe their research in the area is as forward looking or cutting edge as a developer dedicated to a more focused product line.

Granted, I do not work with Logic. I was a VERY HARD person to convert to DP and only parted with SVP when Gibson decided to take over and crash it. Maybe I fear Apple with eventually abandon Logic when they find it is not as lucrative as their new video market or the iTunes Store. (Not that I don't love iTunes and the store!)

There is something inside me that says to stick with MOTU. DP has its problems for some, but I have not had the disfunctional issues some relate here (and I suspect that many of the problems are more due to a problem system - perhaps the Mac OS itself, rather than a DP issue.) In fact, DP runs quite well for me and has done so on my earlier G3 & G4 laptops, iBook, mac Mini, 7200, 7600, 9500, G4 Quicksilver and G5 Dual 2.0. Again, that's me; others certainly have issues with DP.

I guess what I am saying is that I would rather fight than switch. (anyone remember that commercial besides me and Geoff? Products like MachFive, MX4 and the array of MIDI Hardware that MOTU produces demonstrates to me that they ARE in it for the long haul, and I really feel like that should be supported. I also feel that Apple NEEDS competition and should NOT monopolize the hardware and software market. They still get the lion's share of my computer investment, but like in a good investment portfolio, I believe in diversifying. Sometimes you stay in a lower interest stock for a long term gain. THAT is how I see MOTU. They are not as big as Apple by any means. Like Avis, they HAVE TO try harder. And in doing so, I truly believe they help push the future of the MAW market forward.

That and the fact that I don't have any real problems (and I push DP pretty hard) leads me to the conclusion that DP is best for me.

[mastermix]

Anyone like myself who has watched their CPU meter spike on a dual processor G5 with 4 Gigs of RAM WITH NO AUDIO PLAYING under DP knows how bloated and unwieldy MAS has become. there have been a lot of posts here lately about how MAS needs a serious re-write. ...

1. What is a "CPU Spike" ?

2. What happened as you "watched the CPU meter spike on
a dual processor G5 with 4 Gigs of RAM WITH NO AUDIO PLAYING" ?

Did DP Crash? Did your computer freeze?

Are you unable to use DP and/or your computer because of
of the "CPU Spike"?

3. Is there any real proof besides the usual forum chants or myths
that a "bloated MAS" is at the root of these problems?

Kris..

[James Steele]

Glad it works for you. I don't understand why you want to come here and post a Logic ad... but whatever. I mean you joined little over a week ago, so you joined a MOTU-oriented board just to write about how Logic is better? I don't get it. I have moved it to the appropriate forum however.

[qo]

Excellent post MIDI Life Crisis. Pretty much describes my feelings as well. I'll add that I've always felt that the DAW I use should be developed by a company that develops products related to the music business exclusively. The chances are MUCH better that the employees of such a company are musicians themselves (or at least have an affinity in that direction) and so they bring a empathy to their craft which shows up in the products they develop. You're not going to find this in a company as diverse as Apple where decisions are made based on many factors not even related to music.

Even if the Logic developers are attuned to the needs of musicians, they are just another business unit within a larger framework, and so are affected by e.g. budgeting, politics, and the strategic/tactical directions that Apple, as a whole, takes. This (to me at least) means that the Logic developers within Apple are simply less in control of their destiny than MOTU is.

If DP fails, we can be sure it was due to decisions that were made within a small tight-knit company and that these decisions were likely agonized over, and that these decisions were made with the best interests of MOTU's flagship product in mind.

If Logic fails, we'll never know if it was e.g. because it was an underperforming line-item in a speadsheet that someone upstairs decided to delete.

[spurn]

Glad it works for you. I don't understand why you want to come here and post a Logic ad... but whatever. I mean you joined little over a week ago, so you joined a MOTU-oriented board just to write about how Logic is better? I don't get it. I have moved it to the appropriate forum however.

If you look more closely you'll see I joined in January '05 not '06...I've been reading and posting to this board for over a year, and as I said in my original post I've been a MOTU user since 1991. Exclusively so until a month or so ago.

I'm just trying to stimulate a little conversation. Isn't that what forums are for?

[Spikey Horse]

Well, I didn't read your post as a gloat or a two fingers or whatever.

Sounds to me like if the DP was optimized for better performance (equal to Logic in your eyes) you would go back to it.

Would that be about right?

Have you added a comment to the 'petition to optimize MAS' thread?

And BTW has anyone sent it to MOTU or invited them to have a look at it?

[James Steele]

Glad it works for you. I don't understand why you want to come here and post a Logic ad... but whatever. I mean you joined little over a week ago, so you joined a MOTU-oriented board just to write about how Logic is better? I don't get it. I have moved it to the appropriate forum however.

If you look more closely you'll see I joined in January '05 not '06...I've been reading and posting to this board for over a year, and as I said in my original post I've been a MOTU user since 1991. Exclusively so until a month or so ago.

I'm just trying to stimulate a little conversation. Isn't that what forums are for?

My apologies... I should've looked closer. As far what "forums are for" in general... that may be true for general forums. However, I run this forum as place for DP users to help each other with the program and since you have decided that DP is not the app for you, then maybe the Logc Users Group, etc. is more appropriate. I'm uncomfortable about your coming here if your purpose is just to post about why Logic is better in your opinion.

[billf]

.now that Logic is owned by Apple it will always have a leg up in terms of compatibility with changes to their hardware and the OS. And have you ever noticed how ads for third party native DAW-related hardware and software in music mags tout their compatability with Logic and Nuendo, but rarely DP?

I've been with DP since version 2.7, before that I used Cubase. I bought Logic about a year ago to get some of the VI's and plugins. These days I use both DP and Logic on a regular basis.

While DP has its set of issues, I don't think it's fair to leave folks with the impression that Logic is perfect. Logic is better in the CPU usage area, but it also has some shortcomings and bugs. For example, the much discussed unintuitive nature of Logic makes it a beast on the learning curve. It has its share of complaints, defections, and other negatives as well.

Overall, I continue to feel that DP is the best DAW out there, despite the flaws. Logic works great in some areas, such as working with loops, but in others, such as mixing, it has failed to win me over.

I glad that Logic has worked out for you so well, but not everyone may have the same experience as yours.

Best of luck to you on your endeavors.

[Kind Of Loud]

Hmmmm......

I've been working on a project now with 32 audio tracks, MIDI tracks triggering drum samples from Reason (kick, snare, toms) rewired into DP4.61, along with UAD-1, Powercore, and Waves plugs. All running on a "low life" DP800 MAC. The only "hic-cups" I've been getting are by me.......courtesy of Budweiser!!

Enjoy Logic my friend.......

[boonier]

Hmmmm......

I've been working on a project now with 32 audio tracks, MIDI tracks triggering drum samples from Reason (kick, snare, toms) rewired into DP4.61, along with UAD-1, Powercore, and Waves plugs. All running on a "low life" DP800 MAC. The only "hic-cups" I've been getting are by me.......courtesy of Budweiser!!

Enjoy Logic my friend.......

just out of interest, what OS are you running?