WAVES - poor service/unfair demo disabling

dougieb · Post by **dougieb** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:13 am

I love their terms of service "Waves does not provide an answer to a lost iLok key."

I've been dealing with their rather draconian implementation of the iLok copy protection...

Recently they sent me an invitation to try the vocal bundle - so I install it - fine... Actually I was really interested in maybe picking this up...

They also told me that IL-2 and TuneLT were now included with "Gold" - so I installed them -

Here's the fun part - installing TuneLT disabled the demo of vocal bundle and they're telling me I can never (Yes... NEVER) try the vocal bundle demo. They did suggest that I get a new machine which was an interesting solution I thought.

Anyway - Waves sound great - but are a constant pain in the ass copy protection wise - and I had some smart ass kids in the room while I was dealing with this the other day that have pirated versions of all the Waves stuff laughing at me and saying "how much are they paying you to deal with that bullsh••?" and "Why would you ever subject yourself to that?" - true... There they are with completely portable easy versions all rockin' and ready to go - and I'm the legitimate licensed user with my •••• locked down.

I really do feel at this point that Waves owes me some serious monetary compensation. I really want to return everything - if they won't let me use it - I want my money back.

I just bought one of their books as well - about $100 - and get this... the plugs the book discusses - I can't install either - because - again - I installed the vocal demo per their invitation.

Just another time I feel stupid for having a cabinet with tens of thousands in legally licensed software.

Anyone else feel stupid?

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:39 am

I'm really sorry to hear your troubles, but your experiences support my position to "just say no" to products that require iLok.

There's nothing, except possibly Altiverb, that doesn't have a counterpart provided by other developers that does more or less the same thing without the draconian copy protection.

iLok protects the developers, and provides absolutely no benefits to customers. Yet, it costs them forty bucks and unmitigated hassles.

I will never buy any Waves products, or any other products that require iLok, for the reasons you mention. I will learn to live without them, just as I have learned to live without a U87. Doesn't stop me from making music.

dougieb · Post by **dougieb** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:51 am

It's not even the iLok that's the bitch - its the - Oh well... I guess you're screwed attitude... wow... um... there's nothing we can do to unlock it...

LOL... HOW CAN THEY HAVE NO CONTROL? They have the damn source code! and then its the I don't care thing... lame...

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:55 am

Cool... the iLok debate. We went too long without this.

I don't think the problem is with iLok so much as Waves customer service. And by the way, that doesn't justify software piracy. If you feel treated unfairly you are doing the right thing by airing your grievance hear and warning others about your experience with them. I have changed the header by the way, because philosophically this siteis against piracy and there is no justifiable argument FOR it... and that includes Waves.

Also, don't blame iLok. I'm sure that the technology exists for Waves to authorize you to have the demo again and put a authorization on iLok.com. For whatever reason they refuse to. That's a Waves issue and not a iLok issue as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I haven't had any problems with iLok. Also, I'm surprised to hear that someone has cracked an iLok protected plug. I thought that was a pretty difficult thing to do, and I don't begrudge Waves or anyone else protecting their intellectual property from thieves.

dougieb · Post by **dougieb** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:11 am

James Steele wrote:Cool... the iLok debate. We went too long without this.

I don't think the problem is with iLok so much as Waves customer service....

Also, don't blame iLok. I'm sure that the technology exists for Waves to authorize you to have the demo again and put a authorization on iLok.com. Also, I'm surprised to hear that someone has cracked an iLok protected plug. I thought that was a pretty difficult thing to do, and I don't begrudge Waves or anyone else protecting their intellectual property from thieves.

Well, I didn't mean for this to be an iLok issue - I use plenty of other products with the iLok with no hassle. (MX4, Autotune, MachFive). It is Waves IMPLEMENTATION that appears to be flawed - along with their customer service - and I respectfully disagree - this is an argument for piracy.

Waves maintains that you have to use another computer to ever use the demo again - also, reading their "lose an iLok, buy a new set of plugs" provision is pretty lame.

As for iLok not being cracked - it really doesn't come down to iLok being cracked as much as it comes down to someone just going around the code that checks for an iLok - much easier.

I have a great idea to protect Waves! -

When version 6 comes out - don't sell it to anyone - just keep it in a vault - or better yet - ERASE IT! - because someone could steal it!

"I have a rock in front of my house that protects it from burglars. I've never been robbed, so I know it works"

"The PATRIOT act is essential to combatting terror - we know because haven't had an attack in four years!"

"iLok Prevents Piracy"

LOL

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:35 am

dougieb wrote:...and I respectfully disagree - this is an argument for piracy.

Waves maintains that you have to use another computer to ever use the demo again - also, reading their "lose an iLok, buy a new set of plugs" provision is pretty lame.

Then we disagree. On principle pirating software is wrong and a bad customer experience is not justification. Again, sounds like it's a Waves issue... not iLok. If they continue with this attitude they will lose business. They're already losing people due to their upgrade pricing, etc.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:41 am

My bad. I turned this into an iLok issue. But, fact remains that if Waves would treat it's customers with respect like some other vendors do, you wouldn't be having these problems.

The only third party plugs I own are PSP VW and PSP MixPack, which are not copy protected. They're priced right and do what the maker claims. That's a model worth paying to support, which I do.

I have another thread in this section, BS in Audio Marketing. It's precipitated by the fact that a lot of people buy equipment from companies that have no respect for their customers.

They bluff, mislead, confuse and generally crap all over their customers, and yet people still buy their products, and then complain about it. That's the value of forums like this. I've long ago been scared off dealing with Waves, and I have this list to thank for the warnings.

People should look askance at claims made by companies in this industry, because it's rife with questionable marketing practices. And potential customers should check the forums like this before they shell out the cash, because afterwards, it's too late. These companies are only going to listen to our concerns when their sales decline. There's strength in numbers.

iMAS · Post by **iMAS** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:37 am

Jim wrote:The only third party plugs I own are PSP VW and PSP MixPack, which are not copy protected. They're priced right and do what the maker claims. That's a model worth paying to support, which I do.

I have waves platinum and waves ir-1...I won't be upgrading the platinum ever again. And it has nothing to do with iLOK. I don't like wave's wup program...because you're basically renting the plugs. Plus, I honestly believe that waves plugs aren't even the best anymore. Sonalksis, URS, UAD, PSP, etc...are all just as good if not better. I use to support waves plugs, not anymore. And I'm off to purchase the PSP mixpack after I finish this post.

Rizla · Post by **Rizla** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:10 pm

Just to chime in here...

Nothing, NOTHING is worth having anything with DP4 or my g5 screwed up in any way just so I can try some new effect. And regardless of whether the plug is a compressor or eq or whatever, to the way I work, the vast majority of plugs are "effects" and not necessities. Plugin manufacturers ought to realize this -- there's plenty of people out here using outboard gear and outboard mixers and echoplexes and you name it. If in doubt about a new plug's protection scheme, I've been burned in the past enough to forget about it, try something in the real world, rather than risk any problems installing something superfluous. An ilok? It'd have to be something really special to take up permanent USB space. IMHO.

I love the way PSP markets their product. No BS, word of mouth among musicians, they're priced exactly what a plugin should be. The master Q and VW are excellent and I use them every day. I'd stand in line to hear any product they release.

I agree with Jim about this board -- warnings here have wasted me a lot of time and irritation.

FM · Post by FM » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:44 am

iMAS wrote:
Jim wrote:The only third party plugs I own are PSP VW and PSP MixPack, which are not copy protected. They're priced right and do what the maker claims. That's a model worth paying to support, which I do.
I have waves platinum and waves ir-1...I won't be upgrading the platinum ever again. And it has nothing to do with iLOK. I don't like wave's wup program...because you're basically renting the plugs. Plus, I honestly believe that waves plugs aren't even the best anymore. Sonalksis, URS, UAD, PSP, etc...are all just as good if not better. I use to support waves plugs, not anymore. And I'm off to purchase the PSP mixpack after I finish this post.

well said.

i don't have an issue with ilok either, i have an issue with the way Waves handles the whole upgrade thing and i will not be purchasing their products again.

i kinda like the ilok, actually.

forgot to add, i loooove the URS plugs.

peace!

FM

FM took the words right out of your mouth.

shankyboy · Post by **shankyboy** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:19 am

Sorry to hear that you are having a bad Waves experience. They do seem to take a rather "my way or the highway" approach to the use of their product.

On another note, James, I had no idea that you took such a high moral ground on the subject of correct/incorrect software useage. I would love to discuss this further with you but I fear that I would be removed from the site and have my IP address blocked. Suffice it to say that if it had not been for a good friend loaning me a copy of DP, I would not be here right now and I might not have gotten as involved in the industry as I am now. (FYI, I do own all of the software that I use today)

dougieb · Post by **dougieb** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:00 pm

shankyboy wrote:On another note, James, I had no idea that you took such a high moral ground on the subject of correct/incorrect software useage. I would love to discuss this further with you but I fear that I would be removed from the site and have my IP address blocked. Suffice it to say that if it had not been for a good friend loaning me a copy of DP, I would not be here right now and I might not have gotten as involved in the industry as I am now. (FYI, I do own all of the software that I use today)

I don't think James is so petty and insecure as to boot you because you have a different opinion than his. I don't even agree with him 100% on this issue.

I own more software licenses than probably 99% of the members on this board, but I see some justifications for overlooking things under conditions...

1. The example you stated above. People that want to create but can't afford it. The next Mozart could be out there - but just not have access to a piano. I'm sure the software developers can get over this one. If they can't - they should get a life. As in your case where you finally obtained the means, I think that everyone should purchase the products if they use them and they can somehow afford them. If there is something you use enough - you will find a way.

2. Companies like Waves that charge an arm and a leg - and continue to extort cash from you after blocking you into a draconian scheme. If I've already paid for the damn product, I should be able to do what I wish with it when I wish. If I've purchased OSX and want to run it on a x86, then I'm going to do it - I've already paid for it. - and I don't consider this piracy.

Just my 2 cents.

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:49 am

James Steele wrote:Cool... the iLok debate. We went too long without this.

I don't think the problem is with iLok so much as Waves customer service.

Here is my waves issue... Why do I need to pay those fools an additional $150.00 to change my auth method from Hard Disk to iLok. Just becasue they want to make some more money. Take care of the freakin customer and maybe, just maybe I'll shell out the dough for DeBreath and the new DeNoise plugin.... But after this hell I'll do what I have been doing all along. Screw Waves.....

WKWizard · Post by **WKWizard** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:43 am

Well first off; I have to compliment PSP. I bought VW, Mixpack and Stereopack when I first purchased my MOTU interface. The prices were fantastic, items installed easily and when I decided to change from the VST to MAS versions they responded kindly, promptly and everything was a breeze. Great company that I'm happy to support.

As far as Waves; I've read articles (maybe even on Unicornation) about engineers downloading kracks for their LEGALLY purchased Waves plugs because of the hassle and downtime when it comes to dealing with iLok/Waves issues. When it comes to studios, or any other businesses, downtime is money...obviously. Waves should be prompt and helpful, period! Factor in the prices they charge and there's no excuse.

I have no problem with kracking a LEGALLY purchased plug when justified. Frankly, when you buy something you have personal ownership. If you need to customize something so that it works for you, then that is your right...as long as it's not illegally distributed of course. To me, it's the same as modifying a microphone, preamp or any other product I have. Who's to say that I can't modify it to suit MY needs?

I quess the other option is to backup your projects, reformat your hard drive and reinstall Waves. Pretty lame solution though.

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:41 am

WKWizard wrote:I have no problem with kracking a LEGALLY purchased plug when justified. Frankly, when you buy something you have personal ownership.

Not software. You don't own any of your software; nobody does. You pay for a license to use it. And that license almost always comes with restrictions.

Just talking letter of the law here.

That said, I agree with what you said about PSP. In fact, I've have pretty good experiences with all of my app suppliers.