Rock Orchestra Cont'd- ATTN: Frodo!

[zaster]

My guess would be that there were violins, violas, and cellos with no contrabasses or second violins, per se. Trim for each of the three instrument groups might be between 45-90 degrees with the violas dead

I haven't gone back and listened to TLAWR since getting into the whole virtual orchestra thing. But so do you think in this type of pop/rock + orchestra situation that you would always forego the contrabass and use the rock bassist only or would you ever use both? (all other considerations being equal, scenario 3, with no rock bassist and only VI basses seems like a waste of our typical access to an easily available class of musician, doesn't it?)

[Rick Averill]

My guess would be that there were violins, violas, and cellos with no contrabasses or second violins, per se. Trim for each of the three instrument groups might be between 45-90 degrees with the violas dead

I haven't gone back and listened to TLAWR since getting into the whole virtual orchestra thing. But so do you think in this type of pop/rock + orchestra situation that you would always forego the contrabass and use the rock bassist only or would you ever use both? (all other considerations being equal, scenario 3, with no rock bassist and only VI basses seems like a waste of our typical access to an easily available class of musician, doesn't it?)

I think the addition of contrabasses would give a powerful sound.

And I think it would be terrible if the violas were dead.

[Frodo]

Certainly, mixing without a perponderance of low-ranged instruments is easier where the electric bass player fills out the bottom quite easily from the engineer's perspective (which matters greatly, depending upon the engineer).

I often find that when orchestrating with a rhythm section involved on faster tempo non-classical arrangements it's even acoustically easier to not to have contrabasses simply because the bass player has greater freedom with his passing tones. I may choose my own passing tones or inversions in the contrabass, contrabassoon or tuba, but a bass player may have his own ideas that rub with the arrangement.

Now, this is usually the case for live performance, but for studio sessions, it's easier to add orchestral sweeteners after the rhythm section has finished their takes. That way, any low-ranged instruments can be written to compliment and stay out of the way.

I do more orchestrating for live performance with orchestra. Where a rhythm section is involved, there's always an issue of working with the bass player to make sure he/she understands what other lower-ranged instruments are doing to avoid conflicts. I might have an A-flat over D-flat when the bass player desires to play an F instead. It gets to be a problem that is never fully resolved having to tell a great bass player what he can't do. But there is also the matter of imparting the "ink" of the score to the rhythm section as a whole so that they know what's going on in the orchestra to give them as much info as possible about where their freedom sits in the arrangement-- and where it doesn't.

It does get confining at times, but those are the breaks.

Many session "sweeteners" just leave out the contrabasses and other low instruments because they can be hard to mix at times. For things like slow pop or jazz ballads, it's much easier to deal with. At least that's what I've seen in my experience.

Johnny Mandel and Claire Fischer will tell you that they love writing for a full string section top to bottom-- but they will also tell you that some things just get in the way-- they write the parts with the understanding that they may be removed. Claire is much more "openly particular" about it-- but sweetening *after* the rhythm section parts are laid is the best method.

I have no suggestions for live performance!!