Grand Piano Recording Mid/Side an option?

swampfox · Post by **swampfox** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:53 am

Hi all you Gurus! I have a couple of sessions to record soon involving a Grand piano. Praise Be to God! One session will be piano solos of mostly Southern Gospel some up-tempo and some ballad styles. This Lady can play!!! I need some hint's on how to best accomplish this. I plan to record it remotely at the church. I'll use the Alesis HD24 fed by an Allen Heath Mixwiz. I am toying with the idea of trying a mid/side stereo setup using an Audio Technica 4050 as a figure 8 and an AT 4054 for the middle. Never tried mid/side on anything before so I need all the help I can get on this. Do you think this will work well? Any thoughts on Mic placement? Any other ideas/suggestions? Other mics I have are pretty much all directional, small and large diaphram condensers and dynamics. I'll dump the tracks into DP5 to finish it and maybe add some rhythm and Bass at the Studio.

Other session will involve the same piano and a vocalist. I thought about recording a scratch vocal for the pianist to play with, or recording the scratch vocal along with the piano if enough separation can be had. Not sure how best to approach this. There will be several instruments added to the vocal project later. I've tried recording several tracks at once before with less than favorable results. Too much bleed.

I'll humbly accept all criticisms and suggestions.
Thank You
Wally Smith

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:07 am

Try it if you wish, but personally I don't care for MS...many like it, I don't. Call me a lunkhead, I don't know

But check out the other thread in this same Forum about PIANO REORDING...I posted some pics about mic placement for stereo recording that works great!

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:11 am

actually, this is the link

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15244

resolectric · Post by **resolectric** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:30 am

Two matched Cardioids can also be used for the S signal, instead of a Stereo micrphone.

Some engineers also use Omni mics as Mid source in their MS recordings.

resolectric · Post by **resolectric** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:43 am

swampfox wrote:...
Other session will involve the same piano and a vocalist. I thought about recording a scratch vocal for the pianist to play with, or recording the scratch vocal along with the piano if enough separation can be had. Not sure how best to approach this. There will be several instruments added to the vocal project later. I've tried recording several tracks at once before with less than favorable results. Too much bleed.
...

This is where you can give good use to a Figure-8 microphone.

Since Figure-8 mics tend to have excellent side-rejection you can place a Fig8 mic in front of the singer, sideways to the piano.
You will most certainly get a very "piano free" vocal sound.

But, since nothing is perfect, the back of the microphone will also capture a very clear room sound, and, if there is some kind of amplification, that could mean trouble. That's why Figure-8s are so common in the studio and not all that common in live (amplified) situations.

Anyway, if the performance's sole purpose is recording and there is no PA or no audience, you can have the singer's vocal completely separated from the piano if you correctly place a Fig8 mic in front of the vocal.

Not a good option for the piano, though.
If you place a couple of Fig8 mics inside the piano so as not to capture a singer that is right besides it, the backside of the Fig8 mic will capture piano lid reflections that may cause flutter or some other unpleasant artifacts.

I would go for a couple of matched cardioids, inside the piano, Blumleined where the Hi and Low strings cross and a Fig8 for the singer, sideways to the piano.
That way they can perform in a classical setup and you'll have good separation.

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:25 am

The most reliable mic placement setup I've found is the one that I got from an interview in Tape Op with Ray Charles' engineer.

Place two condenser mics about in stereo, one for the "left side (bass strings) and one for the "right" side (treble strings) about 9 inches off the strings, about 3 feet apart and just behind the hammers. Place a third condenser mic, set to omni mode, at the "prow" (small end) of the piano, about 9 inches above the strings and just inside, pointed down slightly.

The stereo condensers give you the stereo spread, the third mic in omni mode fills in the "hole" in the middle and glues the sound together.

swampfox · Post by **swampfox** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:29 pm

The following is a quote from an article titled "The Mid-Side (MS) Stereo Microphone Technique" by Joseph Lemmer

"The typical description for Mid-Side miking is something like, "Aim a cardioid mic at the sound source. Place a figure 8 mic in the same plane as the cardioid-as close to the cardioid as possible, with the lobes of the figure 8 perpendicular to the address of the cardioid. Then, run the signals of the mics into a sum-and-difference matrix to get stereo: Mid + Side = Left; Mid - Side = Right." It is much, much easier than it sounds. You probably already have a sum-and-difference matrix and don't even know it. Every DAW has one. Any mixer with phase reverse on channels has one, too. In the worst case, if your mixer does not have phase switches and you don't own a DAW, you can still create a sum-and-difference matrix with a phase-reverse cable-this is a little trickier, though, so we won't cover that here. There are also products with Mid-Side matrixes built in. These are really convenient and make the process even easier. Mid-Side Microphone Setup
Take your cardioid, omni or figure 8 and set it up as if you were recording the source in mono-however that may be. This is the "mid" mic. Now set up the figure 8 mic (the "side" mic) directly above or below the mid mic without touching. Adjust the position of the figure 8 mic so that its pickup patterns are facing at a 90-degree angle to the left and right of the direction of the cardioid. For the purpose of this article, make sure the normal front of the mic is facing left. See Figs. 1 through 3 below.
That's it. That's your mic setup."

So, not meaning to muddy the water but Mr Lemmer seems to feel a figure 8 pattern along with a cardiod can be used as a mid side setup to record stereo. I tend to agree with what reso said about this though. I don't see how the figure 8 is gonna give a true stereo track. It's gonna capture the Bass from one side and the treble from the other, but all to one track! So you copy the track and reverse the phase on the copy, and it would seem to me that you would then still have the bass and treble in each track. A real piano sounds like the Bass is on the left and the treble on the right. I don't understand how this could be accomplished with a figure 8. I guess I need to read some more. Thanks a lot for the help.

jmoore · Post by **jmoore** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:06 pm

swampfox wrote:So, not meaning to muddy the water but Mr Lemmer seems to feel a figure 8 pattern along with a cardiod can be used as a mid side setup to record stereo. I tend to agree with what reso said about this though. I don't see how the figure 8 is gonna give a true stereo track. It's gonna capture the Bass from one side and the treble from the other, but all to one track! So you copy the track and reverse the phase on the copy, and it would seem to me that you would then still have the bass and treble in each track. A real piano sounds like the Bass is on the left and the treble on the right. I don't understand how this could be accomplished with a figure 8. I guess I need to read some more. Thanks a lot for the help.

Not only CAN a figure-8 mic be used, but to the best of my knowledge one MUST be used.

As far as mid-side goes, my understanding is that it doesn't actually give you and true stereo image, but it simulates one. My professional recording experience is limited to a year as an intern and another year as an assist (so I'm not exactly the final word), but in that time we would frequently use M-S to record pianos and with great results. But...there's more than one way to skin a cat. Sorry P.E.T.A.!

-jordan

swampfox · Post by **swampfox** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:20 pm

Yeah, I have been reading some more and indeed it does seem thst the conventional mid side set-up is a figure 8 along with a cardioid or omni for the middle. Apparently the figure 8 gets the signal from the two sides out of phase. I suppose when you dup the track and invert the phase of the copy you do get the apperance of a stereo field and the mid fills in the hole. I may try it along with a spaced pair or an xy and see how it goes. Now, how best to place the mics would be my concern. I'm hearing about a 3 to 1 rule concerning spaced mics, some say 4 to 1 to avoid phase cancellation and I read that 9 to 12 inches above the strings is good. That would be about 3 to 4 feet apart I guess. Hmm, leaves a large hole in the middle of the keyboard. An xy would be true stereo without any phase problems or copying and pasteing and inverting. But I've been told one needs a good matched pair to affect this. Which is why I was considering Mid/Side. Maybe I'll try to get a decent matched pair of omnis or cardioids.

Thanks again to all who responded. I have about 10 days to finalize a plan, so I'm still open to any suggestions or criticism.
Thanks Jordan, nice to know good results have been achieved using M/S to record pianos. That was my original question!

resolectric · Post by **resolectric** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:28 am

EDIT:
This post contained some wrong information, later acknowledged and confirmed by the author.
I apologize for the fact.

stephentayler · Post by **stephentayler** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:00 am

This talk of a stereo figure-8 for use in MS goes against everything I have ever read about the technique.

Basically L = M+S, R = M-S

You have to split the identical S signal ( figure-8 ) and reverse phase of one channel to achieve the MS decoding. But you are still using a mono figure-8

Stephen

logo80 · Post by **logo80** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:23 am

quite simple...

resolectric · Post by **resolectric** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:48 am

EDIT:
This post contained some wrong information, later acknowledged and confirmed by the author.
I apologize for the fact.
The wrong info has been edited in order not to mislead any readers that might follow the thread only partially.

____________

...

One Stereo mic for the S, one Mono mic for the M is a viable option for MS recording.
The advantage is that you can record this three channel setup into two tracks, and balance the Mono vs Stereo depth afterwards, still having control over the three sound sources, even after they're recorded to Stereo.

stephentayler · Post by **stephentayler** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:25 am

No, S is a mono figure of 8 signal that has to be split. On the left is the first split, on the right is the same channel that has been phase inverted.

No stereo mikes involved.

Stephen

resolectric · Post by **resolectric** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:43 am

Yes, you're right.
I apologize to both forum colleagues for the wrong info i was providing.

Yet...
an MS setup can be done with a Stereo microphone for the S channel and a Mono (single) mic for the M channel.
The S channel can be fed by a two-diaphragm mic or a pair of cardioids.
So, with three cardioid mics you can do a good MS setup.

Hope the remaining info on my other post, regarding recording of vocal and piano, proves to be useful.

NOTE:
i have edited the wrong info i was providing where i was stating that you couldn't use a single output figure-8 microphone to feed the S channels.

Beware, when splitting the signal from a condenser Figure-8 microphone because you'll probably end up cutting the Phantom Power to the mic.
A splitter with a transformer must be used.

MOTUnation.com

Grand Piano Recording Mid/Side an option?

Grand Piano Recording Mid/Side an option?

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