I'm not sure, but I know a lot of people rave about the Fabfilter EQ. I don't own it, but I'm assuming it must have a sidechain as well. I got the Kirchhoff EQ on sale at Plugin Alliance a while back and it seems really nice. I could never justify paying full price for a plug at Plugin Alliance. You can do that and find that a week later it's $29!Michael Canavan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:28 amThe MOTU Dynamics plug in does have sidechain as well, the fact the dynamics EQ does not is big miss for sure. Trackspacer does exactly what the Cubase plug in does in the video though.
Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
What is a true duck mode? Dynamics does gate, expanding, limiting and compression. it's my favorite MOTU plug in for this purpose by far.
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
Pro Q is great, I bought it's wildly under appreciated competitor in DMG EQulibrium years ago.James Steele wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:42 pm I'm not sure, but I know a lot of people rave about the Fabfilter EQ. I don't own it, but I'm assuming it must have a sidechain as well. I got the Kirchhoff EQ on sale at Plugin Alliance a while back and it seems really nice. I could never justify paying full price for a plug at Plugin Alliance. You can do that and find that a week later it's $29!
Both of them do mid/side EQing which you can use to isolate out a frequency etc. I don't think either do dynamic EQ, but I could be mistaken?
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
By true duck mode I mean it would reduce the level without compressing the signal but simply lower it to a set amount (say -3 dB) as if you were manually riding the channel fader.Michael Canavan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:46 pmWhat is a true duck mode? Dynamics does gate, expanding, limiting and compression. it's my favorite MOTU plug in for this purpose by far.
For certain applications, it sounds better and more natural.
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
Looks cool!Michael Canavan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:49 pm...I bought it's wildly under appreciated competitor in DMG EQulibrium years ago.
https://dmgaudio.com/products_equilibrium.php
Although, $214! Ouch... I'm going to have to make due with Kirchhoff for a while.
To add to the discussion of pressing a dynamic EQ into this role, I did find that after a while I preferred Track Spacer in the one particular example test I ran and that was using a lead vocal to have the dynamic EQ pull down some of the midrange frequencies on a stereo rhythm guitar aux. It got to a point where I could hear a weird combing noise when the vocal paused and the EQ returned to flat. I could solve this by using a long release time but I could here the sound of the EQ in transition back to the starting point.
I'm guessing that in some cases, it may be best to simply set a static EQ to notch those frequencies and then careful add bypass automation so that just prior to a vocal phrase ending, the EQ returns to normal *instantly* rather than sweeping back up and it's masked by the last bit of the vocal? Just a thought... haven't tried it yet.
Could also be that just good old fashioned ducking and simply bringing down the volume might be preferably in certain cases as well. But this video ended up causing me to think about new possibilities and that's good. In the video, it was very apparent how much better the mixes sounded when some EQ was applied to the Rhodes.
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
Funny you say this. Your comment just posted as I was posting my last comment pretty much arriving at the same conclusion. In some cases, a more basic level adjustment is going to sound better. When I tried using Kirchhoff EQ dynamically, in my particular application, I could here the EQ notch "returning to zero" and that "movement" became distracting once I listened carefully and became aware of it. As I said in my post... might be better in certain cases to use a static EQ and notch certain frequencies and use bypass automation so you don't hear the "travel" as the EQ curve changes.
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
Hey James,
I figured it out: you have to have the little blue sidechain button «SC» on the right-hand side turned on!... There are actually 2, and it helps to have both on in some cases, since it makes the detector more relaxed to both Transients and RMS energies of the sidechain signal. All in the manual. Nothing I can see regarding sidechains in the manual, however... Also seems any band can be Stereo, L, R, M, or S. Extremely versatile.
Also, all DMG stuff is really great. But Equilibrium does not have anything dynamic. For that you need Multiplicity or Essence.
Thank you for the reply/help. I appreciate it.
These are two great vids about the Kirchoff that helped me. Perhaps you will find them useful, as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK8r3_gw478
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vutXl-laOC0
I figured it out: you have to have the little blue sidechain button «SC» on the right-hand side turned on!... There are actually 2, and it helps to have both on in some cases, since it makes the detector more relaxed to both Transients and RMS energies of the sidechain signal. All in the manual. Nothing I can see regarding sidechains in the manual, however... Also seems any band can be Stereo, L, R, M, or S. Extremely versatile.
Also, all DMG stuff is really great. But Equilibrium does not have anything dynamic. For that you need Multiplicity or Essence.
Thank you for the reply/help. I appreciate it.
These are two great vids about the Kirchoff that helped me. Perhaps you will find them useful, as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK8r3_gw478
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vutXl-laOC0
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
Ahhh... I can see that. I went back and looked at the screenshot I posted and I can see I enabled that one, too... at least the one for "Detect." I didn't enable the one for "Relative." Wasn't even sure what that meant. I should look it up although wasn't sure if it's in the manual or not? I should be I would think. I'll have to go digging.sayatnova wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:18 pm Hey James,
I figured it out: you have to have the little blue sidechain button «SC» on the right-hand side turned on!... There are actually 2, and it helps to have both on in some cases, since it makes the detector more relaxed to both Transients and RMS energies of the sidechain signal.
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
Exactly. Once you hear the effect it's hard to un-hear it. Did you still hear it too much in the context of the full mix or soloed? These effects are usually best when they are used just a little, as a polishing touch, and even in stages. Anything more than a few dB of reduction and they become obvious.James Steele wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:23 pmFunny you say this. Your comment just posted as I was posting my last comment pretty much arriving at the same conclusion. In some cases, a more basic level adjustment is going to sound better. When I tried using Kirchhoff EQ dynamically, in my particular application, I could here the EQ notch "returning to zero" and that "movement" became distracting once I listened carefully and became aware of it. As I said in my post... might be better in certain cases to use a static EQ and notch certain frequencies and use bypass automation so you don't hear the "travel" as the EQ curve changes.
Like in your case, I really dislike the Dynamics plugin for certain applications because then you really hear the constant "dance" of compressed-crunchy sound (on the target) VS the clean and natural one. For things like ducking music from a voice over this becomes painfully obvious. Ducking (pure level instead of compression) is much more transparent for something like this.
James, I wonder if for your application you can switch your plugin to Opto mode? Supposedly using that mode makes your preset release time "slow down" as it approaches and returns to zero. Could that make the effect a little less obvious for you?
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
I could hear it even in a full mix. Of course, you're right... even you scroll back and look at my screenshot, I was using a full 9db reduction of those frequencies, so the "return to zero" was audible. Again... once you hear it, you can't un-hear it!FMiguelez wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:10 amExactly. Once you hear the effect it's hard to un-hear it. Did you still hear it too much in the context of the full mix or soloed? These effects are usually best when they are used just a little, as a polishing touch, and even in stages. Anything more than a few dB of reduction and they become obvious.James Steele wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:23 pmFunny you say this. Your comment just posted as I was posting my last comment pretty much arriving at the same conclusion. In some cases, a more basic level adjustment is going to sound better. When I tried using Kirchhoff EQ dynamically, in my particular application, I could here the EQ notch "returning to zero" and that "movement" became distracting once I listened carefully and became aware of it. As I said in my post... might be better in certain cases to use a static EQ and notch certain frequencies and use bypass automation so you don't hear the "travel" as the EQ curve changes.
Indeed. It might be worth investigating to see if a combination of the two can be used. For example, just picking random numbers if I'm going for intelligibility of a lead vocal, maybe just straightforward ducking alone would require lowering the guitar bus by 5db, but if I apply only a small amount of dynamic EQ at the same time I might need to duck by only 3.5db? Might be worth looking at.Ducking (pure level instead of compression) is much more transparent for something like this.
I have notice that Trackshaper does seem more transparent and I don't hear a "return to zero" type effect.
That's a great idea, and I was trying to find a setting that would do that. I would increase the release time, but that only delayed the moment that it would return to zero... not the rate at which it did. After a while of trying to do that with release time, it becomes apparent that there's also times when just using a static EQ and notching the frequencies (old school) would work better. If that damages the sound of the guitar too much when the vocal is not present, then use bypass automation and switch it off near the end of the last note of a vocal to mask the change perhaps?James, I wonder if for your application you can switch your plugin to Opto mode? Supposedly using that mode makes your preset release time "slow down" as it approaches and returns to zero. Could that make the effect a little less obvious for you?
I will look to see if there's some sort of Opto setting in Kirchoff, but since it's more an EQ than a compressor they might not have a setting to adjust that.
Thanks for all the great suggestions.
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
The thing is that, for that particular application, and a few similar others, compressing (or ducking) a frequency range in the target (keyed by the SC signal) is kind of the opposite of what one wants... Sometimes you want the target track to compress more when the SC is softer and to compress less when the SC is louder.James Steele wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:24 am
That's a great idea, and I was trying to find a setting that would do that. I would increase the release time, but that only delayed the moment that it would return to zero... not the rate at which it did. After a while of trying to do that with release time, it becomes apparent that there's also times when just using a static EQ and notching the frequencies (old school) would work better. If that damages the sound of the guitar too much when the vocal is not present, then use bypass automation and switch it off near the end of the last note of a vocal to mask the change perhaps?
I know of no commercial plugins that do that, but one can do it with clever signal routing.
I haven't done this in a while, but IIRC, it involves:
(put your geek hat on, please)
Duplicating your target track, flipping its polarity, a linear phase EQ, and a Gate instead of a compressor.
That setup allows you to do just that: when the SC is softer there will be more reduction in the target track. When the SC signal gets louder it will compress less (like an "inverted" compressor, which makes more sense for this particular task).
I haven't done that in years and don't remember the details, but if you're interested let me know and I'll dig up the ancient SOS article where I originally read about that. It really works better, IIRC.
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
I completely agree; I've been asking for this for a while and an overhaul on ALL the plugins is way overdue...FMiguelez wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:50 am Very cool mixing workflow. I hear EDM guys make extensive use of it.
Melda has a very nice plugin that tells you which tracks are fighting each other and at which freqs.
Except for the MW Gate, no MOTU plugin has sidechain inputs at all...James Steele wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:05 am Tried to see if I could do this with the MOTU Dynamic EQ but I could not find anywhere to set a sidechain input on it?
[mini rant]
That is exactly what I've meant every time I complained about DP plugins... they are just too early-2000, too old, and they don't really sound very good either (the MW limiter is horrible). I mean, what do we expect when the MW EQ doesn't even have a global i/o gain knob?
A complete plugin overhaul is so past due!
They'd all become instantly 10 times more useful and useable if MOTU added sidechain inputs and SC filters, as well as M/S facilities to all relevant plugs. That would be a good start.
[/mini rant]
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
FMiguelez wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:11 amThe thing is that, for that particular application, and a few similar others, compressing (or ducking) a frequency range in the target (keyed by the SC signal) is kind of the opposite of what one wants... Sometimes you want the target track to compress more when the SC is softer and to compress less when the SC is louder.James Steele wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:24 am
That's a great idea, and I was trying to find a setting that would do that. I would increase the release time, but that only delayed the moment that it would return to zero... not the rate at which it did. After a while of trying to do that with release time, it becomes apparent that there's also times when just using a static EQ and notching the frequencies (old school) would work better. If that damages the sound of the guitar too much when the vocal is not present, then use bypass automation and switch it off near the end of the last note of a vocal to mask the change perhaps?
I know of no commercial plugins that do that, but one can do it with clever signal routing.
I haven't done this in a while, but IIRC, it involves:
(put your geek hat on, please)
Duplicating your target track, flipping its polarity, a linear phase EQ, and a Gate instead of a compressor.
That setup allows you to do just that: when the SC is softer there will be more reduction in the target track. When the SC signal gets louder it will compress less (like an "inverted" compressor, which makes more sense for this particular task).
I haven't done that in years and don't remember the details, but if you're interested let me know and I'll dig up the ancient SOS article where I originally read about that. It really works better, IIRC.
FMiguelez you're a genius man! Thanks so much for that... I've been mentally attempting to find a straight-forward way to do this for a long time... I have an SOS subscription so I'll try to find the article.... and I'll try the method you've suggested....makes perfect sense... Brilliant !! Thanks again
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
I spoke too early….my apologies…. it’s not ‘perfectly clear’ to me at all… actually it’s still quite a mindbender
FMiguelez’s point about a sort of reverse ducking is a challenge to me. … trying to have the Main Vocal rise together with the Music ….….or when the music is soft the vocal reduces level …. or when the vocal is soft the music ducks with it… “Sometimes you want the target track to compress more when the SC is softer and to compress less when the SC is louder”
I found a couple of Sound On Sound articles … perhaps one of them was the article he remembers?
“Cubase: DIY Vocal Rider” June 2010, and “Ducking At Mixdown” May2009 … both aimed at Cubase users. I made some effort with these but ended up leaving it for now… ( :
The Kirchhoff EQ looks capable… I’ll try that
FMiguelez …I’m very interested to hear your thoughts … thanks very much… geek hat on
Best to you
Maxxy
FMiguelez’s point about a sort of reverse ducking is a challenge to me. … trying to have the Main Vocal rise together with the Music ….….or when the music is soft the vocal reduces level …. or when the vocal is soft the music ducks with it… “Sometimes you want the target track to compress more when the SC is softer and to compress less when the SC is louder”
I found a couple of Sound On Sound articles … perhaps one of them was the article he remembers?
“Cubase: DIY Vocal Rider” June 2010, and “Ducking At Mixdown” May2009 … both aimed at Cubase users. I made some effort with these but ended up leaving it for now… ( :
The Kirchhoff EQ looks capable… I’ll try that
FMiguelez …I’m very interested to hear your thoughts … thanks very much… geek hat on
Best to you
Maxxy
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Re: Cool YouTube Video... using Dynamic EQ and Sidechain to make "space" for vocal
Hi, Maxxy.
To do the "inverted" compressor trick, you need a Linear Phase EQ in the mentioned chain, IIRC.
I haven't don't it for years, so the details are fuzzy. But it was fun!
I'll look for the article and my notes tonight when I get back to the studio and post a link or summary here.
To do the "inverted" compressor trick, you need a Linear Phase EQ in the mentioned chain, IIRC.
I haven't don't it for years, so the details are fuzzy. But it was fun!
I'll look for the article and my notes tonight when I get back to the studio and post a link or summary here.
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"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman