sequences, tracks, and songs, oh my!

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:25 am

As a brand new dp-weenie-in-hazing, I've run into some things whilst perusing the manual and "getting my feet wet" that could perhaps help my workflow, but i'm not really sure just when i'd want to use what, as a lot of functional duplication seems to cloud things up quite a bit for me, at first glance anyway...
basically, i do a fair amount of MIDI (VI's), with audio recording...mostly finishing with LCRS (prologic II) cds (poor man's surround). generally speaking, on the pc stuff i'd used i could take a project from start to finish with an arrangement window, a mixer window, and a MIDI editor (and of course, whatever fx).

so now i'm confronted with sequence and track editors that really seem to do the same thing, and a song editor that i just don't see much sense in, given where i've come from.
i'm trying to get a feel for when you folks would use each...to see what i might be missing...how or when does using each make my life easier? song mode i can kinda suss out, but...why not just copy/paste, etc directly in the arrangement (i.e. track editor), and bounce finished projects directly from there?
this is not a flame at all, i'm just not familiar with the conventions yet (it's been a day now...this is how we learn)...but, i'll tell you now, the tabbed main window interface RULES anything i've seen yet. i'd really love if you could embed the tooltray into the top of the main window, and it could still change function with the focus.

thanks much!

k

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:06 pm

Your confusion is pretty understandable. The Track and Sequence windows serve a lot of crossover purposes. And yeah, you could simply cut-and-paste within, say, the Tracks window and achieve what the Song window does.

What it all boils down to is this: What window cooperates best with the way you like to work.

My own example:

I'm a composer guy who mainly puts together tracks for short-form tv (commercial-length stuff). I primarily use VIs to this, although I do record a little live audio on every job.

I have a dual-monitor set-up. On my "A" monitor, I use the Tracks window primarily to compose. It gives me a nice, compressed overview of the many MIDI tracks I have to maintain. Below, also on the "A" monitor, I usually have open the Sequence window. It allows me to do finer-tune editorial tricks when I need to (e.g., nudge or trim an audio track, draw automation pans or volumes, etc.).

On my "B" monitor, I keep up the Mixer window and other diagnostic windows like the CPU gauge. I typically pop-up my VI's on this window as well because I don't mind if they temporarily cover the mixer.

Just one man's way.

Regarding the Song window: This window offers the most visually-simplified way to modularly arrange a song within DP. If your tune is relatively short -- say, pop song length -- the Song window won't offer much more than a quick way to rearrange parts your song (which is cool, but nothing that can't be performed easily enough in the Tracks window). However, if you're working on a long-form piece -- say, a movie score -- the Song window is very helpful. You can create numerous, separate cues instead of one, long continuous sequence, then line them up inside the Song window. That way, if you need to tweak a cue, you can do it without parsing through some gigantic sequence.

Help any?

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:01 pm

The last time I tried the song window was around 1990.

The Tracks window was the original main window from the MIDI only days, and the Sequence window was added after digital audio was.

The tracks window gives a nice simple overview of all tracks and allows basic selection based editing. It's nice 'cause everything is always there, and in the same size and order. I also use it for manipulating all tracks at once for song arranging.

The sequence window is of course where I go for audio editing, but I haven't gotten into using it for MIDI much...I use the Graphic editor for that.

Guitar Gaz · Post by **Guitar Gaz** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:49 am

I have the same problem - I think the Sequence editor should either be got rid of and the audio be able to be displayed in the Graphic Editor - say a section at the bottom where you can do your audio cutting and pasting and moving (like some other software does), or the Graphic Editor should be got rid of and the Sequence Editor be able to use full Graphic Editing techniques - which it doesn't at the moment (for me at any rate - can't seem to drag or move anything). It is a bit messy as it is as you have to move from one to the other - and people will tell me have different window sets and custom keys to move between - but thats not the point. It would make DP a far better and user friendly program if it streamlined these two windows into one - and far less confusing to the new user.

As for the Song Window - the only use it has for me is to put Chunks in order and then make a new bigger Chunk out of the merged Chunks. Which is okay I guess but it seems to be another wasteful/useless window. To me anyway........

fokof · Post by **fokof** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:20 am

I personaly arrange and edit everything in the sequence window.
I only use track window to reassing ins, outs, name ,color, order of tracks....

Guitar Gaz · Post by **Guitar Gaz** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:02 am

So are you able to edit MIDI stuff properly in the Sequence Editor - I can't get it to work - am I missing something?

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:27 am

Ahhh... but the custom keys ARE the point. You see, hitting a key sequence gives you an instantaneous new window set. And it's all set up exactly the way you want it. I keep a dozen or so, and they are one of the things that makes DP indispensible. It's just fantastic to switch window sets so easily.

Shooshie

Guitar Gaz · Post by **Guitar Gaz** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:04 am

I think it would be better with one edit window that did both MIDI and Audio than the two you have now - you can do custom keys on any software so that isn't that unusual. I am talking about new users here and getting to grips with what seems a slightly quirky way of editing. As a new user thats what I think anyway - obviously once you are used to the quirks and have a long established way of working, well you can get used to any system if you know how it works. But I don't think DP is that intuitive to the new user. I have found it confusing and its taken me a while to work out how to use it - I know its deep and complex but difficulty isn't a virtue - I am used to other deep and complex programs that seemed more streamlined.

Anyhow - I am persevering - with help from the forum's tips.

stickwolf · Post by **stickwolf** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:23 pm

Also a newcomer, this bugged me for a while too.

The issues are NOT between the sequence editor and the graphic editor, it is between the tracks window and the sequence editor. My impression:

The sequence editor is where real work is done, and the tracks editor is an ugly, stiff window that overlaps with the sequence editor so much, that the only use for the tracks window is to take care of the technical set up of tracks. But since most of that can be done in both the sequence editor AND the mixer, I think the tracks window is really not intuitive and should be eliminated or highly modified. All of its function can be put into other windows.

And I'm still struggling to really wrap my head around "songs" and "chunks." Even after reading that whole section of the manual.

Thankfully though, DP does allow me to work pretty much the way I'm used to, and just ignore all this.

-Aaron

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:14 pm

See, there are a lot of ways to use DP's multi-window UI. Some folks dig the Tracks window as their primary interface. Others dig the Sequence Window. Find the process that works best for you.

BTW: I think going through the small "getting started" DP manual will help you determine which approach you prefer. With it, you'll run mini tutorials on many window techniques.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:52 pm

I do wish they'd put Selection Start and End fields in the Sequence edit window too.

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:14 pm

Am I the only one who's happy with the Tracks OV/ Seq Ed/ Graphic Ed / Mixer combo?

I program MIDI, play MIDI in live, use soft (and occassionally hard) samplers, VI's, use long duration live recorded audio as well as little snippets of audio in looped/chopped up form - I think that covers most of the bases...

And rather than it being a 'chore' to switch between different editors/ layouts I actually LIKE having all these various options. Motu's other approach of 'one window to rule them all' as used in mach five is just horrible to use. I stick Tracks in the main window of CW and have Audio perf/monitor/soundbites/history/events etc in the side slots... then Seq ED, Graphic ED and Mixer as separate big windows to swap between.

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:29 pm

Spikey Horse wrote:Am I the only one who's happy with the Tracks OV/ Seq Ed/ Graphic Ed / Mixer combo?

No. If you read my initial post on this thread, you'll see this is essentially how I work. I just spread things out over two monitors.

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:50 pm

Oh yes - RTFT! - I think I had Stickwolf's post more in mind about the tracks ov window - IMO it is supposed to be a quick reference window as much as anything else with everything there to see at a glance, even if it is duplicated elsewhere. I find it mort useful when opening unfamiliar project or checking what tracks are free and for arranging track ins, outs, auxs, ordering, etc etc .

The unhidability of the tracks in tracks ov makes it much harder to miss accidental routing mistakes or play/rec enabled cock ups and so on!

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:10 pm

strangely enough, i've found myself using a main window split in two, the tracks window below, the sequence above...
the tracks window, as someone else stated, i've been using for setup, etc...and i'll switch to mixer view if the desire arises...
but, it does come down to personal preference...at least the flexibility is there to allow for different ways of working.

i do like the dual monitor thing (though i'm only on a pb now)...my old pc i usually kept the arrangement on the left (primary) and the mixer, cpu mon, etc on the right. DP would be absolutely killer on a dual monitor setup (mebbe next fall?)...hehe

overall, very much enjoying it. the manual's pretty decent, and i can always come here...

thanks for the feedback!

kell