DP8 announced: 64 bits and available for Windows!

[Frodo]

Sorry - I really don't get this concern about VST on the Mac platform - at all.

What is the deal? I still haven't seen one person post about any VST-only
plug-in that is worth a shite.

You want VST compatability = get Cubase 6. And prepare to deal with that
pile of junk.

C'mon guys...

It may be entirely of no consequence for what you're doing. But DP is now cross-platform. A couple of days ago, it would have been sacrilege to even suggest such a thing.

AudioEase stopped supporting VST Wrapper for DP because AU had come into its own. But let's keep an open mind. Things will change. Things have already changed. DP is now going to Windows. DP is expanding its compatibility prospects.

We're no longer in the old bubble where it was only MAS-AU-Mac-DP to the exclusion of all else. DP has now gone cross-platform, and because different people use DP in different ways with different combinations of different software, compatibility will be an important topic over the next few months.

Yes-- and we should expect a rush of DP users with issues in Windows that we've never before encountered. For the first time, there will be issues that we Mac-DP folks won't be able to address. It will only serve to frustrate some and annoy others.

For as idiotic or inconvenient as it may seem, we're going to see a lot of uncomfortable discussions crop up before things settle down. I doubt that AAF or OMF will work any better at porting PC-DP projects to Mac-DP projects than they do porting projects from any other platform---

See? We sort of got there, but project porting only got to "okay" and never got to "standard". This is something that has been very important to some people.

I hear all the time-- "If DP would only do blah-blah or this-and-that...", then I hmmm and haw for a while. After that, I begin to realize that not everyone uses DP or the computer in general the same way as I do.

That said, I have no immediate use for VST that I can foresee. On the other hand, MOTU is now "up in" VST world sort of "in front of our backs". Many won't be affected by it, but many will, notwithstanding.

I should also add that I'm not very good at foreseeing my needs nor the needs of others. Neither do I mean to insult the opinions of others by daring to present my own insights. I'm trying to look at whatever bigger picture there might be in the name of "forest" not "trees".

If stranger things have happened, I would suggest that strange things are *happening*!

To coin a phrase from our brothers and sisters across the Great Pond.... "...And what's the After?" In other words, where do we go from here?

I'm going to be devastatingly optimistic. The whole of computer world now has "Intel inside". MOTU has gone cross platform in a big way-- not just hardware, but now it includes our beloved DP.

The DP-Mac-only bubble has burst.

We just don't really know yet what that means this early in the cross-platform process. It may mean nothing, but booting people off to Cubase is a harsh punishment. I've been there--- and it was just.....

awful.

[KEVORKIAN]

Could you explain what you mean by the AU spec being incomplete or VST features that AU doesn't support?

I've never encountered any problems with MIDI in AU plug-ins or VI's.

The AU spec does not allow for multiple MIDI ports within plugin instances. This limitation hasn't bitten me but there have been some threads on Motunation about this concerning Vienna Ensemble users:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 9&start=15

Personally, I use NI Machine and Slate Digital Trigger and both allow MIDI output back to the DAW directly from within the plugin (without bussing) but AU doesn't support this. As a result, I actually tend to use them in other DAW's where I'd rather use them in DP.

Is it the end of the world? Definitely not, but it would be nice to have, IMO.

[Shooshie]

Just a thought about the "crowded mix bus" comment:

When I read that, my first impression was that the "squeeze" in terms of "size", dynamics and frequency response one encounters when mixing sans sufficient headroom in DP (and I assume all other DAWs), was what was being referred to. Personally, I was stunned when, after ditching the O2R, my first experimental mix in DP sounded pathetic and "small", squeezed out of all life. Obviously I was attempting to replicate the approximate levels I was used to running in the desk in DP. Big mistake.

IMHO, depending upon the instrument, 10-15dB of headroom isn't unrealistic, thus allowing for summing levels and inter-sample peaks. I've no idea whether or not it's a weakness of digital summing or perhaps inter-sample peaks or whatever (probably many factors), but cranking down individual track levels appears to open things up nicely.

Today I recorded one of the more challenging instrumental duos I've ever attempted: Piccolo and Piano. I did exactly what you just said; I opened up everything by bringing the levels down enough so that there was just never any worry about headroom. Piccolo can be super-shrill in the high register. I recorded it at 88.2K/24 to capture cleaner samples up there in that high register, hoping for a more well-defined tone. I think it worked. It'll be days before I've completed the mix, but I think it captured the essence of both instruments with some warmth in the tone even at its shrillest. Oh, and the piano was recorded with Main/Side, and it's a beautiful recording of the piano. Anyway, as always its a matter of opening up some space where you want it to shine.

Shooshie

[grimepoch]

Looks like a good thing that I didn't upgrade to DP7 yet since I see DP8 is just around the corner. Personally I think it's a great thing that MOTU has diversified DP to be on the windows platform as well. I work with non-Apple centric people all the time, at least now, I can get them to pick up DP if I want to work in DP and not have it be a Mac/PC battle!

Although I would disagree with the comment that windows is changing less, have you seen things on Windows 8 yet? They are REALLY changing directions with windows, and, windows is releasing a version of Windows 8 that runs on the ARM processor technology in tablets and phones. I think we are going to see a huge switch in the 'personal computer' PC and the 'professional' PC. The ARM compatible processors are getting VERY fast, and I should know, I help design them for a living. That gap is closing and I am VERY interested to see where these technologies go. I am seeing a huge desire for even further multi-processor driven systems and I think the ARM architecture is driving that. There are quad core ARM chips coming out this year and Microsoft has said Windows 8 will automatically scale to the resources on these processors. Interesting and changing times indeed.

I am really happy about 64-bit for when I am working on movie sound. I ran into problems with DP6 when I'd use all my RAM and have to restart DP many times as when I got to the top, it would REALLY start to work erratically. I prefer to have the whole movie sound in one file and this will allow me to do that. Whether plugins need to be 64-bit, that will depend on how MOTU implemented their interface. I've not used Logic in 64-bit because working on just music, I've never even come close to using all my RAM.

That said, in some research I've done, I've seen that being in 64-bit can mean using optimizations in the CPU that can make your code run faster. Probably all depends on the implementation. But might be a plus hidden under the covers.

The biggest problem of AU vs VST is if you are working with someone on the opposite system of what you have. AU plugins aren't going to open up if a VST is used on the other system as they are not compatible interfaces. With Ableton, the OSX version uses VST as well if you want (or AU). I think this is why VST might be important on the OSX side in the future for compatibility with opening projects on both types of systems.

Also, VST under the hood is just like AU in terms of the GUI is separate from the processing code. This means that code shared between them is probably not that hard to translate. Although AU plugins do not have to be C++. I wrote one completely in Objective-C and that is NOT going to translate to the PC world. Also, if a VST developer didn't use the VSTGUI (because you do not have to use it) for whatever reason, their GUI will need to be recoded for the opposite system. Sometimes limitations do exist in GUI libraries that force people out of them.

AU itself doesn't support MIDI generation internally in a standardized way. Just as mentioned, the protocol doesn't have an officially supported mechanism in it like VST does. Now, I've created AU plugins that create MIDI, because I have the plugin just show up like another MIDI source, which does work. But it is really kludgy. MAS has a MIDI plugin as I am sure most of you know. If Motu drops that, I am not sure what would replace that. Ableton has MIDI plugins as well and I do use them. I've always found this a huge omission in Logic, as any MIDI type manipulation in the 'environment' is PAINFUL. Also, Motu did not provide the MAS MIDI plugin SDK to third parties. I asked them a few years ago to notify me if they were going to make one available and I've never heard anything. For this reason, I think MOTU would do well to include VST for those that want MIDI effects.

I can give a perfect example of a plugin I've wanted to use for YEARS and there is only a VST version (though not for OSX) and that is glitch

http://illformed.org/plugins/glitch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BobK]

MOTU has posted a press release. There's no more info than in the videos, but there is a nice big screen shot of DP 8 (on Windows).

As for the 'crowded mix bus', remember the words of Bob Katz:

I just received one of the most beautiful, dimensional, pure, spacious mixes I've ever heard. How was it done? In the Box, mixed digitally in Digital Performer.

Find his post here, around the middle of the page:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index. ... 55/64737/0

It's ain't DP's fault if you crowded up your mix.

[Prime Mover]

Guys, what I'm guessing is that DP8 handles the portability between mac and PC by automatically finding the corresponding VST to match whatever AU you have, and replaces it, and vice versa. That's the only way you could make things portable between the systems. So, Kontakt AU with Alica's Keys loaded becomes Kontakt VST with Alicia's Keys loaded, and that's all she wrote. No frets about portability.

Either that or they totally screwed up and made the program completely incompatible between OSs (which they claim they didn't do).

[Michael Canavan]

Guys, what I'm guessing is that DP8 handles the portability between mac and PC by automatically finding the corresponding VST to match whatever AU you have, and replaces it, and vice versa. That's the only way you could make things portable between the systems. So, Kontakt AU with Alica's Keys loaded becomes Kontakt VST with Alicia's Keys loaded, and that's all she wrote. No frets about portability.

Either that or they totally screwed up and made the program completely incompatible between OSs (which they claim they didn't do).

If MOTU figured out a way to get AUs to load as VSTs and visa versa it's the first time any company has gotten that working. Not saying they haven't, but more likely they added a "bounce all tracks as separate audio files" command, we will see I guess huh?
First full screen teaser of DP8 I've seen.
http://rekkerd.org/img/201201/motu_dp8.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bayswater]

I can give a perfect example of a plugin I've wanted to use for YEARS and there is only a VST version (though not for OSX) and that is glitch
http://illformed.org/plugins/glitch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd like to be able to use a couple of the old Prosoniq plugins, particularly Dynasone. But not enough I'd want MOTU working on Mac VST rather than a whole lot of other stuff.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Looks like a good thing that I didn't upgrade to DP7 yet since I see DP8 is just around the corner.

Well, if you mean purely from a financial perspective, perhaps, but you've had to suffer without some of the great stuff DP has offered over the last few years. Is that worth the $200? Let's see... an average of maybe $400 in upgrades in 4 years...

$400/730 days comes to about 50¢ a day. I guess each of us has to decide if our music is worth that much.

[monkey man]

Today I recorded one of the more challenging instrumental duos I've ever attempted: Piccolo and Piano. I did exactly what you just said; I opened up everything by bringing the levels down enough so that there was just never any worry about headroom. Piccolo can be super-shrill in the high register. I recorded it at 88.2K/24 to capture cleaner samples up there in that high register, hoping for a more well-defined tone. I think it worked. It'll be days before I've completed the mix, but I think it captured the essence of both instruments with some warmth in the tone even at its shrillest. Oh, and the piano was recorded with Main/Side, and it's a beautiful recording of the piano. Anyway, as always its a matter of opening up some space where you want it to shine.

Shooshie

Well done, Shoosh! If you find the time, it might be an ideal opportunity to practically verify and quantify this phenomenon first-hand, so to speak, by cranking the tracks (and compensating on the master bus) by 2 or 4 dB increments and comparing the mixes by soloing adjacent tracks. Just a thought, if not an obvious one, but I sure would like to hear what you find.

Supernova II

Sorry Grimster, that's all I saw (in your sig). Did you say something? LOL I managed to get that SN but missed out on the II, so I still(!) hanker after yours after all this time! You know the drill - PM me if you're even 0.1% tempted.

So happy to see you're still in touch with the family, man. Hope the fillum work's going well.

I have quite a few friends who never got into DAW's but want to, and I've always had a hard time recommending anything to them on Windows. Now I can confidently recommend DP!

Same here, Mark; my second reaction (after shock) was to start scheming as to who I could now recommend DP to. I don't know anyone on PC except my little brother though, but you can bet he's gonna cop the hard sell!

I reckon, at least initially, that we Mac users will play more than a minor role in persuading those in 'Dozeland to give her a whirl... then DP will go "viral". LOL

[grimepoch]

Haha, still keeping the SuperNova II. In fact, I just agreed to buy a Bass Station and a Drum Station from someone local that wanted to part with them. I admit, I am addicted to hardware. And I still use A LOT of software synths as well (my sig is very out of date).

When I mention not upgrading to DP7 that is because only two weeks ago I was considering buying DP7 as I've been off doing other things in other software for while and have need for DP again in my work. I've been doing A LOT of video production/special effects work in After Effects, Final Cut, Premiere, and not as much audio. But, now I am shifting gears back into the audio world more. I use DP for mastering/mixing final projects. I wrong songs in Logic and Ableton. I have ProTools and I use it for nothing. I did a few projects in it and kept saying "This is so much easier in DP" I keep it in case I need to deliver a project in it then I just throw the final stems in and ship it off.

I'd be VERY surprised if MOTU translated between VST and AU. The plugin preset formats are NOT compatible. I've NEVER even seen a translator for presets which I would LOVE because I hate getting them in formats that I can't read in natively in the host on some plugins. Like in Logic, it deals with the AU format itself, but internal to the plugin, many of my plugins will only load the VST format internally. Really really strange.

[Gravity Jim]

I love my Supernova II. When you're going for bad dance music craziness, it's pretty hard to beat... those oscillators will rip your head off, man.

[kgdrum]

I use DP for mastering/mixing final projects. I wrong songs in Logic and Ableton.

Grime: I think Motu should quote what you said to promote DP!
lol, I realize it's a typo but pretty funny!
Logic & Ableton must face!! lol

[grimepoch]

Haha, I saw that I did that and left it as it made me laugh as well.

[James Steele]

Guys, what I'm guessing is that DP8 handles the portability between mac and PC by automatically finding the corresponding VST to match whatever AU you have, and replaces it, and vice versa. That's the only way you could make things portable between the systems. So, Kontakt AU with Alica's Keys loaded becomes Kontakt VST with Alicia's Keys loaded, and that's all she wrote. No frets about portability.

Either that or they totally screwed up and made the program completely incompatible between OSs (which they claim they didn't do).

No middle ground between those two? The stock DP plugs will open up fine between platforms. There's no VST substitution that I heard anything about. MOTU might be able to figure out something in the future re: 3rd party plugs, but they had to start somewhere. I don't think they expected this to be like people will go back and forth that much. Still easier than going from DP to PT right?

They're not really expecting people to switch from Mac to Windows. They're simply making a Windows version to bring in NEW users on the a Windows platform. I heard that someone from Calewalk (Sonar) came by to watch the demo. I expect they're a little nervous about now.