Mac/INTEL gets more respect than AMD64 users

[calaveras]

This is the last straw. I stopped by the MOTU site today and the first thing you see is a gushing "Intel Mac drivers on the way!". Well thats nice for the tiny handful of users who have been forced to crawl along without proper drivers for, what, a week? Maybe 10 days?
I'm sure I am not the only person who purchased an AMD64 based computer becasue it was simply the most powerful computer available for the money. (this is not debatable vis a vis Macs, those dont even have internal raid for one set of drives, much less multiple sets of drives)
I am fairly certain I am not the only person who also purchase an 828mkII because it was the most powerful audio interface available. Fireface, Traveler and 896 not withstanding. I would be probably just a little self centered if I thought I was the only person who also has a copy of Sonar 5 along with the previously listed components. I had actually got it in my head somehow that I was going to use my 64 bit software on my 64 bit computer with a 64 bit os and everything would be hunky dory. Ooops no driver for my audio interface!
Unfortunately MOTU has no idea that any of these other products exist and is pretty much NOT going to come out with any AMD64bit drivers. I have been politely asking for over a year now. AMD64 CPUs have been out for 2 years. Windows XP 64 has been shipping for the last 8 months. . I wish I could believe otherwise. I wish MOTU would prove me wrong. Oh well, I guess I will just sell my 828 for an awful price on Ebay and buy an Maudio box with drivers that support SHIPPING 64bit Windows computers.
goodbye MOTU and thanks for all the LEMONS!

[Empire 21 Music]

so what exactly are you whining about again? oh yeah - please mention the AMD64 vs Mac again - Power is one thing - but it aint the best when it aint STABLE.....

[calaveras]

I have never had any stability problems with an AMD running at stock speed. Sure my overclocked AMD systems sometimes crash, but that is par for course.
I am not whining, I am pissed off. The mac/amd issue is not the first problem I have had with MOTU. Anybody happen to have a parallel MIDI interface? oh yeah great driver support for those.
Motu needs to just stop pretending it has windows drivers, then we can all move past this

[john jeffers]

I can understand being pissed off - but not sure what the Mac reference is for exactly - but I can say that they have catered more to the Mac users than the PC's - I use both - but with all the viruses and hackers in PC-land - firewall or not - its a no brainer for me - sounds like if you are dedicated to PC - then look at PC catering hardware manufacturers...

Empire 21, I understand your point about MOTU being Mac-centric. And there's nothing wrong with that if that's what they choose to do. But the minute MOTU puts a Windows logo on their box and claims to be Windows-compatible, then they need to provide equal support to that platform. Either play the game or don't. It's the half-hearted nature of MOTU's Windows support that bugs us.

If I had known that MOTU was more reliable on Mac than Windows, I wouldn't have bought my 896HD's and gone thru all the frustration that I have to get everything working. I suppose you could say it's my fault for not doing my homework, but I think MOTU has to take most of the blame for the reasons I said above.

EDIT: Hey, how the hell did my post end up above yours? If any admins are reading this, my post is supposed to be below the one I quoted.

[Empire 21 Music]

I can understand being pissed off - but not sure what the Mac reference is for exactly - but I can say that they have catered more to the Mac users than the PC's - I use both - but with all the viruses and hackers in PC-land - firewall or not - its a no brainer for me - sounds like if you are dedicated to PC - then look at PC catering hardware manufacturers...

[giles117]

Looks like the shoe is on the other foot. There amny companies out there that slap a mac logo on the box and the program is super shoddy. Why dont they support us mac users as well as the PC users. This could go on and on. If you dont like the support pick anothe rproduct. Vote with your Dollars.

Thats what I do.

[calaveras]

I am not against Macs. I have owned/used Macs before, they are great for what they are. When Mac has built in SATA raid I will surely buy one.
Right now my lowly AMD64 bit computer runs mirrored raid sets for the system drives and also for the audio drives. This is built in to the board and away from the PCI buss. So it does not get in the way of my TCpowercore.
I am just annoyed that MOTU is going out of its way to accomodate the Mac users who switch to Macs new Intel based CPUs, but are doing nothing to accomodate AMD/INTEL-64bit users. If you look at market share, AMD based computers are roughly equivalent to Macs.
I guess MOTU thinks they can get along without that whole market share.
bad business model.

About viruses, It is true that Microsoft's operating system is more prone to virii and hackers, whether this is from greater market share, poor programming or lamentable business practices, who can say?
I personally maintain a seperate computer for going online, gaming, newsgroups etc. My music machines never touch the internet. If I still had a MAC it wouldnt either.

[sholland]

I am a long time Mac user, and my MOTU software and hardware has been good to me. But if a PC user asked me if he should get some MOTU hardware I would respond with a definite NO. Why go looking for trouble?

[giles117]

well it has been purported that MOTU is mainly a mac company.....

Not the best thing to hear but....

I'd just grab an RME Fireface 800 and be happy. Total mix works just fine on a PC... and it is more versatile and powerful than CueMix Console.

Trust me I am not knocking your issues. But in the world of we gotta get working NOW!!!! I recommend to people what will get them working NOW!!!!!!!

My Entire solution is MOTU, but I am also commited to the mac platform and picked hardware that works relatively effortlessly on the mac. I count way more PC issues with MOTU hardware and NEVER suggest it to a PC Guy.....

[mothra]

Now answer me this.. How many mainstream audio users are actually running a 64 bit version of Windows..

Probably not enough to devote the time and resources to getting the driver done especially with the Intel Mac OS around the corner that believe me is going to cause quite more of a shakeup than whether or not you have Windows 64 bit drivers.

I seriously wonder if people arent just screaming this stuff because of the number attached to it.. '64 is bigger that means I have to have it'!!!

Umm correct me if Im wrong, but doesnt the Mac OS have its own built in RAID nowadays?

[Jidis]

About viruses, It is true that Microsoft's operating system is more prone to virii and hackers, whether this is from greater market share, poor programming or lamentable business practices, who can say?I personally maintain a seperate computer for going online

Ditto in all regards. Seldom do people consider quantities. If thieves were to cut a key, which would open a certain make of car, so they could steal pocketbooks and credit cards, how much effort would they really invest in making one for a car that they might see once a week? They'd probably be willing to work ten times harder for a key to a car which they could find three or four of in any given neighborhood. I was a long time Mac user for a little under a decade, and began crossing about four or five years into that. IIRC, I think I've had *one* noticeable virus on each side. The PC one was some "CIH" crap from back in the 95 days, which couldn't do much other than spread itself, hoping to find a 486 or something who's BIOS it could work with. Not putting your studio machine online is a given, as is not foolishly opening programs that you receive in spam emails (we all know better, I hope). We've also got Norton Ghost over here, so nobody ever really needs to be more than ten minutes away from restoring their system drive to it's *exact*, stable, virus-free state.

Didn't mean to change the subject. Their (MOTU's) priorities are definitely screwed up. The PCI systems are the only things I've seen relatively consistent results with across all the forums and that doesn't include the initial install problems, slot preferences, or MOTU's infamous "disappearing act". It also doesn't include the 324. That one is either doing better now, or people have upgraded, so there are fewer of them. If it has gotten better, it may just be from the development (can I call it that) put into the "new" 424 driver. Unified driver code doesn't seem to be doing too well for them regardless. If the individual hardware isn't worth your time to create and/or maintain an individual driver, or properly tuned driver for that device, don't claim that you have one. Maybe I'm oversimplifying the situation, but how many competent programmers does it really take to produce an acceptable driver? How many competent advertising or graphics people does it take to produce a full color back cover ad for Mix magazine? How many competent programmers does it take to keep up with the unique and ever changing hardware/software requirements of the Mac? Most properly written Windows drivers or software, which properly conforms to the specs for that platform's hardware and software, will usually work through several generations of Windows PC's with little or no changes, and won't be anywhere near as particular about the board or CPU it's running on. Something is obviously not being done right. They could easily afford to hire one more Windows programmer. Heck, find a really good one, put him/her under an NDA and just send them the driver code and a check. Better yet, find one with a home studio and send them a piece of hardware. That way you wouldn't even need to pay them.

I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy nut, but FWIW, I doubt much of this will get adequate public attention with each of the major magazines having a fat monthly check rolling in from the ads. Most people here are "net savvy" enough to dig up honest opinions through the best online resources, but I doubt the average consumer is so lucky. You also don't get in here without setting up an account and logging in. This is no real trouble, but some casual, browsing shoppers may not realize the need. I guess they also wouldn't be free to view some of the 2004 (and earlier) driver versions for currently shipping products.

BTW- I snailmailed them a polite letter about this and other issues several weeks back, but haven't heard anything yet. I sent it to customer relations or something. I guess it may take a while to get a response. Nothing aimed at my fellow users here, but this forum is usually pretty depressing. The only DAW hardware forum or newsgroup I've frequented, with this constant flow of valid, unresolved or ignored conflicts and complaints from the users, has been the ST Audio (Hoontech) forum, which may be more understandable anyway. Their hardware is nowhere near as abundant, and the average investment in it is probably a lot less than a MOTU setup. I also might add that they did at least have a rep. who frequently replied to the posts in there.

Good luck everybody, and Calaveras, I hope you can get a driver soon.

-George

[calaveras]

Now answer me this.. How many mainstream audio users are actually running a 64 bit version of Windows..?

I can't answer this with a definitive number. But I can tell you that 12 Tone (also a Boston area company BTW) released Sonar 5 a few months back. This version of Sonar not only has a 64 bit mix buss, but comes in win32 and Win64 versions. Of course you can just run the win32 version on WinXP or Win2000. But this negates the benefits of a 64 bit processor.

Probably not enough to devote the time and resources to getting the driver done especially with the Intel Mac OS around the corner that believe me is going to cause quite more of a shakeup than whether or not you have Windows 64 bit drivers.

This will have little to no effect on Windows users. Sure Mac Os is coming to Intel hardware, but Apple under Jobs is notoriously a closed hardware company. There will of course be boot roms involved in every product that comes out, only the most hackerish of hackers will be playing with MacOs on non Apple hardware. I can assure you that it won't be stable enough to ameliorate the savings. Not to mention an HP, Dell or Whitebox Intel computer that runs a hacked Mac on intel OS will DEFINITELY have driver issues.

I seriously wonder if people arent just screaming this stuff because of the number attached to it.. '64 is bigger that means I have to have it'!!!

Well that is true of anything in music, or else 88 key controllers wouldn't sell so well. Seriously though, AMD 64bit chips have more registers so they are better able to handle more memory, simultaneously. They also have intergrated memory controllers on die with the cache and cpu. They are immensly faster and run significantly cooler(hence quieter) than the previous generation of chips.

Umm correct me if Im wrong, but doesnt the Mac OS have its own built in RAID nowadays?

Is that hardware raid? Is it built in to the system board? Can you install 4 hard drives in your Mac with that humongous cooling solution?

[calaveras]

Of course they open with the trite roundabout way of saying no, we dont have any plans for drivers for you.

As of now, we have no announcements for MOTU 64-bit Windows drivers.Please check back at the MOTU website: http://www.MOTU.com for any news and updates.

Then they insult your intelligence with this inane power resetting ceremony they ask you to try.

Please follow these trouble shooting steps for your 828 mk2's display:

••• Power down and unplug the 828 mk2. There is a red voltage switch imbedded into the right side of the unit. Flip the voltage switch 4 times back and forth and go back to the voltage setting that you are running on. (Either 115 or 230)
••• Try an alternate power cable.

I especially like the part where they suggest your problem could be corrected if you use a different power cable. Sure that makes perfect sense. The rest of our 828MKKII functions fine as a DAW front end but only the display does not beacuse we have been using a faulty power cable.
But wait there is a ray of light a t the end of the tunnel!



If this issue is still occurring, I can issue a return at no cost. Please provide the first & last name, address, and serial number that you registered this device to. If you have not registered your device, I can register it for you. Please provide:


-Your first and last name
-Street address, City, State, Country
-Phone number
-Email address
-Serial number of the device
-Computer platform (PC or Mac)


UPS 2-day shipping back to you is included at no cost. However, if you would like faster shipping, we offer UPS next-day for $15. Please include which shipping method you would like. Please also be aware that the repair could take up to, or around a weeks time depending on the availability of the units, so a one day change in shipping back to you may not make much difference.
If you would like UPS next day, we accept Visa or MasterCard for the payment of shipping, which you can provide us over email. Full credit card number is required, including expiration date and 3 digit security code on the back of the card. For security reasons, we suggest that you type out the digits as words. For instance: three, five, two, nine, etc.
You will be receiving a factory fresh unit back from MOTU in the same or better condition than the unit you sent to us. This makes the return process faster, rather than repairing and sending back your original device.


After we receive this information, you will be sent back an email with shipping instructions and an RMA number
Thanks for writing,
-Erik
MOTU Tech


PLEASE include previous email correspondence for reference in your reply,
and PREFIX YOUR SUBJECT with "ATTN: Erik."
Please include your system specifications.
=============================================================
MOTU Technical Support:
Tech (voice): (617) 576-3066 [9am-6pm EST Mon-Fri]
Tech (fax): (617) 354-3068
Tech (email): techsupport@motu.com
On-line support: http://www.motu.com/techsupport
=============================================================
.

Well I am going to see if MOTU will honor this offer and fix my 828MKII, er, REPLACE is actually what they are offereing here. But the idea of emailing a credit card number in cleartype is just, antebellum. I think I will opt for whatever the free shipping is. On Jan 15, 2006, at 10:56 PM, XXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX wrote:


So I see it is more important that MOTU supplies timely drivers for its MAC users (intel mac drivers update on the way!) than to remedy the sorry situation of X64 drivers.
I have owned a x64 computer for more than a year now, I have owned an 828mkII for several years. I even have a demo copy of Sonar 5(64bit) which came out last year. When will amd64 customers get the same respect that mac customers get? Do we have to burn our 828's on the front steps of your corporate office?

I am really sick of this, I think I am just going to sell mine on ebay and get an Mbox or something. Oh wait I cant because it's got a dead display! Another fine quality MOTU product.
Keep up the good work.

[mhschmieder]

As an extreme counter-example, I recently had to hunt down a floppy drive for my iMac, due to some recently purchased vintage synths that use floppies as their data exchange mechanism.

I had to buy and return three separate USB floppy drives that had OS X logos on their box before finally finding what is apparantly the ONLY truly OS X 10.4 Tiger compatible USB floppy drive currently on the market, from LaCie.

The others just ASSUMED they were OS X compatible because of Classic Mode, not realising that this rarely works with driver-related stuff. They hadn't even bothered to test/verify their stuff actually worked on OS X.

In the realm of MIDI interfaces, etc., there are many choices out there, unlike with floppy drives, so I would suggest that Windows-centric users who are uncomfortable with buying hardware from a Mac-centric house like MOTU simply stick with Windows-only vendors, if they do not have the time to deeply research intricate system dependencies beforehand.

It is a bit much to ask of ANY vendor to be on top of every platform configuration, when they are releasing hardware that generally gets revved less than on a five year basis (such as the MIDI interfaces).

With that said, my collaborator has no problems whatsoever with his MOTU 828 mk II running under WinXP SP2 and using Sonar. Contrarily, his firewire interfaces from supposedly Windows-centric vendors have given him no end of trouble.

I actually bought my own 828 mk II for Mac OS X based on his positive experience on Windows using the same hardware, having owned an 896 mk I a few years earlier (which I switched for an mLAN setup, to my deep regret, from mid-2004 to mid-2005).

[calaveras]

Why was this moved? I posted in hardware because it concerns hardware problems. Also MOTUs response to my hardware problems.