Super-expensive A/D converters - really worth it???

Resonant Alien · Post by **Resonant Alien** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:34 am

I'm sure this will light a few fires, but here goes.....

First, let me put the debate in context. Let's assume that you have a modest DAW rig and a modest project studio - no $20,000 acoustical treatments, no $30,000 monitors, etc. Let's just say you have a good set of mid-priced monitors (Mackie HR824 or Event Studio Precision 8 - around $1k per pair), and you have some DIY sonic treatment in your room. Also let's say you have a native DAW - DP, Logic or PTLE, no PTHD rigs for this debate please.

And lets say you have a decent interface already - let's say FSOA you have a MOTU 828mkII or a Mackie 400F - both units which have arguably some of the best A/D converters in their price range.

In this context, are you really going to see/hear a HUGE difference if you buy the big dog A/D converters like Apogee Rosetta? Even if there is a sonic difference (which I'm sure there is to at least a small degree), is it really worth the price tag......I think an 8 channel Rosetta goes for about $2700?

Thanks,
RA

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:51 am

Short answer: Probably not.

I think the key term here is "project studio."

Just my opinion.

methezer · Post by **methezer** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:53 pm

$2700 buys a LOT of beer! And we all know that beer is byfar the cheapest way to make your mixes sound F-ing GREAT!

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:25 pm

There are many parts and components to making a good studio for both tracking and mixing. The choices you make in microphones, the preamps you run them through, the cabling you choose to connect everything, the monitors you choose to listen on, how you treat your room, where you sit in the room, the choice in EQ's for mixing, blah blah blah....and yes, the converter on both INPUT and OUTPUT absolutely have an effect. But the reality is that many are not able to really hear the full range of their gear.

What you hear is limited to what the converter is able to produce, what your monitors are able to produce, how well your room is tuned to keep the room flat, the cabling, etc. I recently had a long debate with someone about why Monster Cable IS worth the money and why I've spent SO much money on it over another grade of cable, he couldn't hear the difference in his room. This is true for many home and small project studios too, they don't hear the difference.... so they do insist that cable is cable. So I took him into my studio which is HIGHLY tuned both inside the wall and with the room treatment. I am using Digidesign 192 I/O converters which are some of the best out there, I'm clocking everything with a BigBen to give me the most stable digital clocking, I'm using ADAM Audio P33A monitors which are BRUTALLY accurate, I was using Earthworks QTC40's recording through a GML8302 preamp providing the ultimate in accuracy and clarity. We listened to the tracks with the Monster Cable, and then switched to this other cable.... HUGE difference, it was noisy on the top-end and had some low-level hiss. When playing this back through another set of monitors and converters, you couldn't really hear it.

Taking this example, rest-assure that having converters on the level of Apogee certainly is an upgrade!!! HOWEVER AND I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR ON THIS.... it's not always the smartest upgrade! The downside to this level of converter is your weaknesses show through, that's a good thing... BUT given the choice if you had to choose between a good quality converter and great preamps and mics, or a great converter and average pres and mics... I'd choose the good converter and great pres/mics every time because THAT is where your "sound" is really coming from. The converter is what will limit the quality of input and output, but the converter doesn't affect the "tone" to that extent. It is important, yes.... BUT FOR A HOME STUDIO, I advise you to spend your monty on D/A conversion which in many cases will take care of the A/D as well. But to also put that money into GOOD MONITORS, PRES/MICS, TREATING YOUR ROOM.....and then--worry about getting into the high-end A/D. Once these other pieces are in place, it will take your setup to the next level... but if you're not mixing on monitors you can really hear everything on which can only re-produce what the DAC will allow which can be altered by the phase and lack of a controlled-room... it won't help you make your tracks sound any better to a certain extent.

Kubi · Post by **Kubi** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:49 pm

Yes.

After a few A/B tests, if my AD converter craps out, I'll rent one before I use the MOTU 2408mkIII. And my AD is just a Lucid. Next purchase here is an AD one level up.

Of course, as was mentioned before, every link in the chain makes a difference, but the AD is what determines how the AC signal you worked so hard to put together turns digital (which it will then forever be.) So it makes a huge difference IMO.

Since you already have a decently treated room with $1k monitors, taking care of AD (and DA! Buy the Benchmark DAC-1) will make such a diff, you wont recognize your studio, and you will regret not having done it earlier...

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:06 pm

Guys, he's talking about a "modest project studio" and wondering if a high-end A/D (super-expensive, he says) will make a "huge difference."

Do you really think it will?

Or am I misunderstanding the scope of the question?

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:07 pm

Chris, It will....but the question is will that difference actually be "noticeable". It depends, will the other gear get in the way or not? My point in my post is that many will buy these converters and be disappointed thinking they are going to hear this night and day difference but many times, they don't have good enough monitors or cables or a room to really show the difference. A great example, I once proved this theory to a client of mine that was visiting from Bermuda.... we put a Neumann U87 and a RODE NT1000 through a Mackie 1604vlzPro mixer and they didn't sound like there was a difference in price of $2,000.... so then I ran this through my Focusrite ISA430mkII's and the difference was like a Hot Rod Drag-Racer compared to a standard vehicle. Sometimes the rest of the equipment gets in the way.... but it still makes a difference, whether you can really hear it or not.

qo · Post by qo » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:44 pm

I started to write a very long response, but, decided not to. Either you see angels dancing on the head of that pin, or you don't. I don't, but I probably need better glasses, or the lighting is not right at my place. I'm sure everyone takes into account what motivates people to hand out advice here (or anywhere else) and then weighs all advice received accordingly.

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:04 pm

BradLyons wrote:Chris, It will....but the question is will that difference actually be "noticeable". It depends, will the other gear get in the way or not? My point in my post is that many will buy these converters and be disappointed thinking they are going to hear this night and day difference but many times, they don't have good enough monitors or cables or a room to really show the difference. A great example, I once proved this theory to a client of mine that was visiting from Bermuda.... we put a Neumann U87 and a RODE NT1000 through a Mackie 1604vlzPro mixer and they didn't sound like there was a difference in price of $2,000.... so then I ran this through my Focusrite ISA430mkII's and the difference was like a Hot Rod Drag-Racer compared to a standard vehicle. Sometimes the rest of the equipment gets in the way.... but it still makes a difference, whether you can really hear it or not.

I hear you. I've no doubt that the quality of the audio flow chain -- from mic to gear, in and out, around the room and into your ear -- suffers from each slight deficiency comprehensively.

But once you have all high-end monitors, cables, pres, acoustic treatment, A/D/D/A gear, etc. can you really call a room a "modest project studio?"

Where's the modesty?:D

I think you're into full-fledged recording studio territory then. In which case, yeah, load it up.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:10 pm

Chris,

I see your point now

I guess it depends on what you consider modest and what you consider professional. While my studio is full of professional gear, I consider it a modest setup...then again I've been in studios that cost several times more than my house so that's what I'm comparing to.

jon · Post by **jon** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:26 pm

But once you have all high-end monitors, cables, pres, acoustic treatment, A/D/D/A gear, etc. can you really call a room a "modest project studio?"

I agree..

I want all the finest and the hottest audio equipment too that the folks rage about over at Gearslutz/high end in my Motu/Mackie project studio but in the end is it not ( your mix ) just a bounce away from an Mp4 listen on your 1 gig iPod shuffle with a pair of ear buds?

jaffi · Post by **jaffi** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:46 pm

You guys are putting way to much into the gear. Yes, the gear makes a difference. I won't argue with that at all. But, I have heard some of the most wonderful stuff come from an eight track digital. If the artist and engineer don't have the chops, then all that money don't mean %#@! Will better gear make a difference? Yes, but only in the hands of the right ear, the right guitarist, the right bassist, the right engineer, the right pianist, etc, etc. The rest of the chain has to be top notch in order for the sum to be nop notch. If you have all the best gear and sub-par musicians, then the quality will be sub-par no matter what. Be sure that your musicianship is up to level that requires uber-expensive gear before you go spending tons of money on high-caliber gear. Otherwise, you are wasting money on $20,000 wheels on a rusted out Cutlas Supreme.

Resonant Alien · Post by **Resonant Alien** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:08 pm

jaffi wrote:You guys are putting way to much into the gear. Yes, the gear makes a difference. I won't argue with that at all. But, I have heard some of the most wonderful stuff come from an eight track digital. If the artist and engineer don't have the chops, then all that money don't mean %#@! Will better gear make a difference? Yes, but only in the hands of the right ear, the right guitarist, the right bassist, the right engineer, the right pianist, etc, etc.

jaffi - No offense, because what you say is true, but I think your post falls into the "Duh" category. It's obvious that if you are a crappy musician and a crappy engineer, you're going to produce crappy music and crappy recordings.

The reason for my question is a matter of economics - at some point, we all have some cash to upgrade our studios, and we want to spend that money in the most effective place given the context of our situation. So, my question was coming more from the angle of if I am going to drop $3k on some studio upgrades, are A/D converters the place to put it, or would I be better served putting that into better monitors or better acoustic treatments, etc.

Don't get me wrong, you make a good point, but gear DOES MATTER. If it didn't, Bob Rock would be mixing on a Mackie 1202VLZ through a set of Kenwood speakers.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:31 pm

Resonant,

Why don't you list the gear that you have right now....and I'll see if I can make sense of what would make sense...hmmm did that make sense? LOL

valleysound · Post by **valleysound** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:49 pm

I think there is a price/performance line. For twice the money of the Motu stuff, I decided that Metric Halo 2882 was the way for me to go.
I just put together a mobile recording package consisting of:
Powerbook G4 and DP and Lacie D2 Extreme 250GB
16 channels of Presonus Digimax 96k
Metric Halo 2882 and 2882 +DSP
Mackie Contol and 824's
24 Channel transformer split snake
Sure, anyone can get some Motu boxes and a Mackie analog board, but I felt for a bit more cash, I can get what I feel to be better gear.
I come from a live sound background, so I have different habits and working ideas than a regular studio guy/gal. Ex: a $2000 ribbon mic sure sounds great in an acoustically treated room, but put it into a live application and it is too sensitive. What I'm doing to record is far different than studio work, but the mix down will be the same none the less.