MOTUnation.com

I have a lot of apps, too. I should add up front that most of my crashes happen when opening and working on older projects - some two to fifteen years ago (I'm remixing a bunch of old projects.).

Crashes can occur on Open, on double clicking an instrument on the Mixer Effect Insert (usually a VI, not an effect, but those too, every now and then), and other random clicks on the interface.

I always Save As... after opening an old project. If the crashes happen repeatedly, I can usually stop them by starting a New Project, and Load the crashy one into the New Project.

If I get crashes on Open, I can usually stop that by launching DP, disabling MOTU Audio System, open the Project, then enable MAS.

If I'm still getting crashes after enabling MAS, I launch DP, disable MAS, Open the Project again, disable some of the VIs and/or audio tracks (the blue ENA button in the Tracks tab), enable MAS, then enable one or more VIs or audio tracks at a time, Saving after every successful non-crash.

So far, this has worked all the time, in that I've not had a case where I couldn't Open or Load an older Project. Some of my old Projects go back as far as DP 3 (although I've been using DP since the first version, and plain old MOTU Performer before that).

If there's a fix for this, other than what I've described, I'd love to hear it. But, mostly I'm posting this in case anybody else experiences these non-stop crashes. For the most part, once I have a project that's not crashing DP all the time, I have pretty smooth sailing.

Computers tend to become unstable when many applications are installed, tested, removed.
I have seen this when certain addicted people always install every VST demo released in the market and remove them later.
(these people do not produce any music but spend a lot of time testing new VST for new sounds)
Why not you do a fresh install of the OS and 'those only required apps' and check?

Regards.

Haha. I'm not one of "those" types. If a demo impresses me, I'll buy it. If not, I delete all traces of them by doing a disk scan for the app or plug-in name and the developer company to make sure the Libraries don't hold traces of them.

I wrote that "I have a lot of apps" because I don't get nearly as much crashing in my other apps. In fact, hardly ever. This is specific to DP and working with older projects.

I reinstall the OS whenever I have issues that seem systemic, or related to the OS. That's good advice. Thanks.

I too am getting more crashes than ever, but it is very much related to specific plug-ins -- unfortunately, ones that I can't live without as the alternatives do not pass muster.

The one that most frequently crashes if I even look at it, is IK Multimedia's T-RackS Meters, which I have engaged at almost all times on my Master Fader. This one became the runaway winner when I compared to dozens of other LUFS meters.

There are a couple of others that are instant crasheroo as well, but I forget which ones. And it might relate to pre-buffering, as I seem to mostly avoid the Meters-caused DP crashes if I just wait a bit after re-enabling or opening/closing its GUI.

mhschmieder wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:09 pm
The one that most frequently crashes if I even look at it...

The Magliozzi brothers would advise you to stop looking at it. Problem solved!

Jim wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:06 pmI wrote that "I have a lot of apps" because I don't get nearly as much crashing in my other apps. In fact, hardly ever. This is specific to DP and working with older projects.

Just to play devil's advocate... hehe... not to defend DP at all, but it probably would be more fair to compare DP to other DAWs. As in, "DP 11.22 is the crashiest DAW I have." The only reason I mention this is that I think it's fair to say that given not just the complexity of a modern DAW, but there are a lot of interdependent moving parts. A DAW is interacting with third party software including drivers and software plug ins by hundreds of different manufacturers, as well as third-party hardware like control surfaces, etc. So I would expect DP to crash more than Calendar, or Pages, Microsoft Word, etc.

I'd want to know how often it crashes on the same system with same plug-ins compared to Pro Tools, Cubase, Logic, Studio One, etc.

Anyway, certainly not trying to quibble with you, for sure. I understand your frustration. Just saying DAWs have a lot more stability challenges when compared to just any "app" for all the reasons above. I also think what you might have going on could be due to some strange issue/interaction with other software. I'm running 11.22 and hate to say, my experience has not been like yours. When there have been problems, I've found it's generally a third-party plugin causing them. That doesn't necessarily excuse DP though. Before I report situations like this to MOTU, I will usually load the same plugin in Logic (so it's Audio Unit and thus apples-to-apples) and see if it Logic has an issue with it. If not, then I let MOTU know this as it seems that would point to a possible bug in DP.

Jim, I would open an empty DP file (under templates) and then use load command under file to pull in the older files desired data. It has worked for us in such scenarios. And if someone has already mentioned that, I apologize. Been having eye troubles.

DP is, and has always been the crashiest app I've ever used. That is to say-- I use it. Other apps that are crashy get deleted right away. Since my new M1 MBP arrived, RME's TotalMix is now officially broken, so I have to quit it right when I boot up or it will freeze.

DP crashes when my computer's new, it crashes when I do a bare-bones install, etc.

What has improved (thankfully) is that with more recent DP versions, I lose less work after a crash. I can usually rescue a file and resume work.

James Steele wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 8:52 pm it probably would be more fair to compare DP to other DAWs. As in, "DP 11.22 is the crashiest DAW I have."

Fair point, James. DP is the crashiest DAW I use, but my bread and butter comes from using DaVinci Resolve (NLE), Adobe Premiere (NLE), and After Effects (effects). Music is an avocation. NLEs comprise a DAW plus a video component, so the stress factor on the system is multiplied. When I'm editing, I'm stressing the system for 10-12 hours per day for days on end. Both Resolve and Premiere crash on occasion, but hardly once per day. I'm new-ish to Resolve (2 years), but I'd been using Premiere for around a decade after the Final Cut Pro X debacle caused many users to jump ship. Pr used to be an extremely annoying crash fest - the crashiest app I had for a while, during a period when DP never crashed. Currently, I'm using Resolve 18.5 beta, and although crashing is to be expected, it's only crashed once or twice in the few weeks since the last release.

By contrast, DP has been crashing several times per hour, but I should repeat that's because I've been updating mixes, and working on several projects per session. When I'm using the NLEs, it's usually on one project over the course of days.

I appreciate your advice, and you may be onto something about the cause being a plug-in. I have so many now. I went on a buying binge over the last couple of months picking up VIs and FX on massive Summer sales - mostly vintage synths and newfangled modular synths like PhasePlant that put spiking loads on the CPU. Some are older, and fail the plug-in examination by DP (with the attendant notice they might cause crashing), but work regardless. Prime culprits are from Air Music Technology. I know those are old code because their GUIs aren't scalable and are small compared to most VI GUIs - not developed for 4K displays.

labman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:31 am Jim, I would open an empty DP file (under templates) and then use load command under file to pull in the older files desired data. It has worked for us in such scenarios. And if someone has already mentioned that, I apologize. Been having eye troubles.

Yes, I mentioned that in my OP, but I appreciate your input. I hope your eye troubles abate quickly and completely.

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:14 am DP is, and has always been the crashiest app I've ever used. That is to say-- I use it. Other apps that are crashy get deleted right away.

That's a luxury I don't have. If you'll read my reply to James above, I've relied on NLEs for my primary business tool. When they get crashy, I have to continue working and devise workarounds, or I miss deadlines and risk losing clients. Fortunately, I haven't missed a deadline yet. In one horrible era, I was saving my work in Premiere after every click or drag. You do what you gotta' do.

I've been saying for years that adding new features to an app isn't as important to me as making them more stable and less crash prone.

DP 11.22 suffers the fewest crashes of any version I have had. 10.x was the worst.

Adobe Premiere is the hands down winner of the crashiest app I have sweepstakes on my iMac Pro.

Things that help besides the suggestions you've received:

Reboot. Memory leaks are a cold hard fact of life and developers play Whack-A-Mole trying to keep them at bay. MS Office and web sites are the most likely sources but plug-ins are frequently the cause. DP appears to be quite sensitive to not enough free RAM. Even with 128GB available on my iMP, I pay the penalty if I don't reboot every 3–4 days or so. Otherwise, make sure your plug-ins are up to date—often, plugging a memory leak is the only real feature an incremental update includes.

Do a Safe Boot, then reboot. This rebuilds your system paths and resets caches to Default. How depends on your Mac nowadays. Mojave and Monterey seem to require this more often than Ventura and Big Sur.
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-hel ... enu%20bar.

Boot DP into Safe Mode by starting with the Shift key held down. Similar to a Safe Boot, this disables paths to your plugs and shared resources—and rebuilds them when you fire up DP again. With DP 10, I'd get multiple crashes in a row and this was the only way I could make it useable again.

To diagnose, open the Activity Window and keep it visible. If anything turns red, immediately drill down till you find the cause. Don't be surprised if it's something you did not suspect like a fan control app or anything from Corel except Toast which doesn't use Corel's licensing daemon.

If you do have a Corel app installed, you will need to disable SIP and use something that can search the root like Find Any File to remove it completely.

If you have any Antares apps installed, when was the last time you updated the CodeMeter run time?

Have you sent the crash logs into MOTU? What did they say?

mikehalloran wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 10:50 am Have you sent the crash logs into MOTU? What did they say?

I appreciate the advice, Mike. I've tried most of what you suggested already.

The last time I opened a support ticket with MOTU, I got no reply whatsoever. I suspect they don't want to acknowledge they don't have answers for certain questions.

I did get a reply once when I asked why all my old SDII files were borked. I got a generously detailed reply about how they don't play well with RAIDs, and by copying them to a RAID from a single disk, the resource forks get damaged. There was a discussion here at Motunation about it.

I did a drive search for a DP Crash Log, and found nothing of the kind except for a log of the time I last Force Quit. It might be illuminating to read a Crash Log, though. Good idea.

Jim wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:13 amSome are older, and fail the plug-in examination by DP (with the attendant notice they might cause crashing), but work regardless. Prime culprits are from Air Music Technology. I know those are old code because their GUIs aren't scalable and are small compared to most VI GUIs - not developed for 4K displays.

So are you saying that you have a number of plugins that fail in examination by DP, but you enable them anyway because the seem to "work?" It might be that this is why DP is crashing. I mean in your own post you acknowledge that MOTU informs you that "they might cause crashing." They might have put that disclaimer in for a reason. It might actually mean something.

I don't know if simply having AU plugs "at the ready" in MAS that have failed validation can contribute to instability when you haven't instantiated those plugs in a project... but it's possible.

Might try turning off all the "failed validation" plugs you've installed and see if things become more stable.

Jim, I know how annoying a crashy app is when you pretty much have to use it. I use a CAD app that will crash at least once per hour. I have to do constant backups and restarts. Buggy too — basic functions just stop working at random. The company that sells it denies just about any report I send. The alternative is apps that cost a few thousand so I put up with it.

As for DP, I have pretty much the same setup at you, both hardware and software, except I usually use macOS 10.14 rather than 12. I see nothing in V12 that does anything better than 10 and have nothing that requires it. Even so, I never get DP 11.22 crashes with either.

From what I read in other places, the most common cause of DAW crashes is plugins. That makes sense to me because that has to be the main difference between a setup like mine and a setup like yours. There are a million plugin developers and half of them are below average.

As Mike suggests, other things on the system also seem to contribute to crashes of specific applications. I’ve noticed having any Adobe, Microsoft and AVID stuff installed on my system increases the number of problems with other applications.

I don’t think this excuses MOTU entirely. A lot of plugin makers don’t test with DP, as we see in their claims of compatibility (I see that PSP does). Perhaps MOTU could be somewhat proactive and do some of these tests themselves and initiate some sort of process with plugins that don’t work well with DP.