MOTUnation.com

Hi everyone,

I have generally been a lurker here except for my post in 2014 about selection of MIDI notes which spurred a good deal of discussion.

I haven’t been using DP nearly as much as I used to, but as I grew up with it and use it for all compositional projects I have a lot of love for it. I try to keep up with the updates and from my perspective it looks like MOTU is doing little but making half-baked efforts to match features of “competing” DAW’s (clip window, having MIDI clips, etc.) and adding esoteric plugins that do not fill any gaps users haven’t already filled through third party plugs.

It seems to me that all of DP’s overwhelming strengths over other DAWs (at least for many users) come from decades in the past, and no substantial “upgrade” would be any sort of gamechanger for power users such as many of you. I like the newer scaling/zoom feature but to me it doesn’t solve what I perceive as the bigger problem of most all elements being just too small in general. Again, I love DP and hate the [maybe contrived] feeling that while so many serious pros use it, it’s on borrowed time (I am also well aware that users have been scared of this for decades).

Does MOTU have the ability to do a substantial overhaul of DP to “modernize” it but believe that doing so would eliminate or alienate its loyal customer base? Or is DP so low on their list of profitable products that they don’t really care? If they think it’s just fine the way it is then why would they continue to release these updates and put up flashy product web pages? I know full well that most of you are far more informed and better positioned to opine on this than I am, so I’d love to hear some thoughts from anyone who feels this is a worthy subject for discussion.

The reason I have continued to purchase updates of DP is MOTU keeps making it better. I'm not going to try to cover all of the improvements in v10 that I love, but the overhauled audio engine must be mentioned. Also, the excellent pitch and time quality introduced with v9.5 IIRC continues to provide great results. DP is very mature. I don't want groundbreaking. I want stability and useable enhancements. For my workflow, DP delivers.

There is a new version of DP just around the corner. This time stated pretty much flatly by Matt from MOTU. I like that DP got Clips, I'm wanting them to take it a bit further even. I don't think DP is going away anytime soon. Matt seems pretty excited by what they've added although he can't tell us anything!

DP might not be in the top 5 DAWs out there, (Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Live, FL Studio) but it sits in the second tier nicely next to the others, (Bitwig, Reap, what's left of Sonar, Reason, Studio One, Samplitude etc.), there's no reason to think DP is going anywhere. With the top five MOTU are competing against mostly deep pockets (in Avid, Apple, Yamaha), and I would say that Live and FL Studio are more geared towards straight electronic music, simplified for the most part for people with some time after a long day in IT who want to relax. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not where DP shines or DPs audience.

I love DP to death. It has taken many steps in the right direction lately, and it has grabbed quite a few new users along the way.

There are just 2 things that really annoy me about MOTU/DP> That they seem to take forever to do needed updates (especially lately) and that DP is full of things that almost work but not quite... This is especially annoying when it's obvious that just a little more time and love from the programmers could quickly and easily fix these things, making them much more useful and attractive for everyone.
MOTU can definitely use a couple more programmers. I know they're a small company, but not that small that they couldn't afford this. The increased new sales alone would pay their salaries easily.

About DP being more "modernized", I agree it needs a major overhaul in quite a few areas. For instance, the included plugins are nowhere near as useful as they could be, especially if you compare them to what the competition has to offer...
It's hard to believe MW EQ doesn't have a mere output gain knob for the crucial task of matching the loudness when bypassed, or that the MW compressor doesn't have an external side chain, let alone a side chain filter. Same with the Dynamic EQ (which is otherwise awesome)> Why not add an external side chain with filters in there too? It would instantaneously make them twice as useful and versatile!

Trim should be added to be part of the mixer below the pan pots, just like VEP does, so one can control any aspect of the stereo image right there, with instant visual feedback, without opening anything. How about adding mute buttons and an M/S facility in Trim?; and a slick RMS/Peak/LUFS meter? Hell, how about adding an M/S facility to ALL their plugins as a feature, like so many vendors do?
Also, optional x4 oversampling should be added to all the non-linear function plugins (and add a new and awesome saturation/distortion one, while you're at it).


MachFive3, which has basically been abandoned, should be improved and added as part of DP.
If they improve on the new Clippings feature, so they are more like Live's in terms of features and usefulness, ir would basically guarantee new sales and new young customers right there. Again, it's almost there, but not quite... They already did most of the hard work, so it's just a matter of having the will to improve it.
DP needs at least a full anual cycle of a bug-riddance update and a general improvement/new features upgrade.

I have SO MANY DP suggestions and improvement ideas I could write a full book about it. But I won't put you to death from boredom with that, at least not for now

It is already quite an amazing program. I think the future looks VERY bright for DP, but only if MOTU makes it more of a priority. It could be their new gold mine, if given the proper love

A few bug fixes would be nice in the mean time—nothing major but the little nit noid crap gets annoying. Yea, there are always workarounds but c’mon…

Besides the above I’d like to see MusicXML input — even if certain MOTU employees can’t understand why anyone would want it. Logic’s had it for a decade and it works as a translator in the mean time.

I keep using DP mainly because I can find my way around it and get something done -- I've never had to limit what I'm doing because of DP. I've had Logic even longer and have yet to both start and finish a project in it. I can do an all audio mix in Mixbus (which has come a long way) without thinking, but MIDI is not up to snuff. Other than Bitwig, I've tried all the others and didn't think the learning curve was worth the effort.

But I have to wonder what the attraction would be for someone starting out, looking at spending a few months on the learning curve. I know the workarounds, but can't imagine how someone new to DP would deal with it. It used to be that you could figure out DP because it would work the same way as a hardware mixer and tape, but that's long gone.

Getting a lot of the design quirks and bugs like those observed for Clips, font sizes, strange ramps in automation curves, etc, dealt with properly would make a big difference. Getting those webinars posted wouldn't hurt.

bayswater wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:47 am I keep using DP mainly because I can find my way around it and get something done -- I've never had to limit what I'm doing because of DP. I've had Logic even longer and have yet to both start and finish a project in it.

This.

A significant strength of DP-- which is difficult to quantify-- is its adaptability. With so many different ways of approaching a project and so many ways of setting up the preferences, screen, shortcuts, workflow, and project components, DP can be many different things to many different users.

Though I am irked by some clunky/buggy aspects (because they are related to very frequent tasks-- and they USED to work right), and my user experience has more "quit unexpectedly" events than all other programs combined, I still feel invested in the success of DP. This is because the alternatives that I've tried don't come close.

I'm very concerned that a "modernizing" could result in a culling of lesser-used features. There are even features that I rarely use-- but I'm comforted knowing that they are there-- when I need them (e.g., MIDI arpeggiator, tempo processing, "invert", etc.)

With MIDI 2.0 starting to come into focus a bit, and MPE (and polyAT) also getting a bit more attention, those are a couple of areas where a big DP update could start to show some cool design choices.

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:45 ammy user experience has more "quit unexpectedly" events than all other programs combined,

I expect this is something that could be addressed. I never
get unexpected quits in DP, except for those instances where someone has documented bug here, and MOTU has verified it. Maybe there are factors associated with OS, plugins, external devices, driver versions, etc that make a difference.

OTOH, I find MacOS quite temperamental, even the Finder crashes now and then. That's one thing that should never happen.

bayswater wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:22 am

stubbsonic wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:45 ammy user experience has more "quit unexpectedly" events than all other programs combined,

I expect this is something that could be addressed. I never
get unexpected quits in DP, except for those instances where someone has documented bug here, and MOTU has verified it. Maybe there are factors associated with OS, plugins, external devices, driver versions, etc that make a difference.

OTOH, I find MacOS quite temperamental, even the Finder crashes now and then. That's one thing that should never happen.

Sorry to veer off-topic (sort of). In fairness to MOTU/DP, it is quite possible that my instability could be due to something like Rogue Amoeba's Loopback (which now runs in the background) not playing nice with core audio and/or DP.

wtcmusician wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:31 pm Hi everyone,

I have generally been a lurker here except for my post in 2014 about selection of MIDI notes which spurred a good deal of discussion.

I haven’t been using DP nearly as much as I used to, but as I grew up with it and use it for all compositional projects I have a lot of love for it. I try to keep up with the updates and from my perspective it looks like MOTU is doing little but making half-baked efforts to match features of “competing” DAW’s (clip window, having MIDI clips, etc.) and adding esoteric plugins that do not fill any gaps users haven’t already filled through third party plugs.

It seems to me that all of DP’s overwhelming strengths over other DAWs (at least for many users) come from decades in the past, and no substantial “upgrade” would be any sort of gamechanger for power users such as many of you. I like the newer scaling/zoom feature but to me it doesn’t solve what I perceive as the bigger problem of most all elements being just too small in general. Again, I love DP and hate the [maybe contrived] feeling that while so many serious pros use it, it’s on borrowed time (I am also well aware that users have been scared of this for decades).

Does MOTU have the ability to do a substantial overhaul of DP to “modernize” it but believe that doing so would eliminate or alienate its loyal customer base? Or is DP so low on their list of profitable products that they don’t really care? If they think it’s just fine the way it is then why would they continue to release these updates and put up flashy product web pages? I know full well that most of you are far more informed and better positioned to opine on this than I am, so I’d love to hear some thoughts from anyone who feels this is a worthy subject for discussion.

"Modern" doesn't mean anything other than "recent". As far as the UI, I think the zoom approach DP took puts them over all but the fully scalable DAWs (like Ableton Live). Certainly better than Cubase and Studio One, both of which contain many very tiny UI elements that cannot be made larger.

The critical advantage of DP (IMO) is its clear logical model. To the extent more "modern" DAWs just glom on features without a plan for coherency, pursuing lock-in by abandoning MIDI etc, I hope DP never follows along. DP's treatment of MIDI, audio, routing etc makes sense to anyone who's done audio engineering and production over the decades. The #1 thing MOTU could do for DP is release all the webinars they've done on youtube ASAP. Seeing the power of DP in the hands of an experienced user is an eye opener.

Michael Canavan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:36 am DP might not be in the top 5 DAWs out there, (Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Live, FL Studio) but it sits in the second tier nicely next to the others, (Bitwig, Reap, what's left of Sonar, Reason, Studio One, Samplitude etc.) ....

I still use DP at times, but I think you are way out of date by regarding Studio One as second tier.

The improvements since version 7 are impressive to me. I do agree, nit-picky stuff like a pref to have sends open at 0 is still one of my pet peeves. I have been asking for an "update to end" automation feature for the frame of the mixer for years and have explained ad nausium with no action. There has been a mutual agreed upon global request for a knob that would modify the audio channel levels only and reduce ro add mixes up to 6db to channel levels. Currently you need to update trim all audio channels from the front and group down the mix which is touchy and imperfect on giant mixes. Or, larger high resolution faders as an option now that we all have giant monitors and cores to handle it. There are more but I digress, DP is my baby and I will stick to it till they bury me. I have bought all the updates since inception from just MIDI to audio in support of it. I was very young then and ran a studio called Alpha Burbank with SSL G console automation. Long live DP!

Last spring I threw myself into trying to migrate to windows. Whatever DPs future is, it seems like its gong to be Apple centric. My experience trying to get work done on it with the same plugins and efficiency in doze as on OSX was abysmal, frustrating and had basically no response from MOTU who seem to be focusing most of their resources on hardware development as this is probably where the money is and I can't blame them. It probably safe to assume that hardware sales subsidize DP's development. I couldn't agree more with all of FM's points or sentiments. Polite emails to tech support generally fall on death ears. DP is what I know and have used almost daily for decades. For me there is no economy in switching DAWs as long as DP tags along and stays efficient with faster HW, albeit late the party, but Its hard to see what the appeal to learning it in comparison to other tools that are now available would be. Windows issues (in my experience) aside, I wouldn't recommend DP to anyone getting into or returning to DAW production because it seems like there are so many other better options with better features more responsive and innovative developers. That's a bummer to write. I really like the community of this forum and have learned a lot here over the years and I'm very grateful to have it a resource but for the most part, most of the time, it seems like we (both cheerleaders and critics) are on our own with legit issues and suggestions. And I would add to FM's comments that sustained public involvement on MOTU's part with its user base would help everybody involved's future with DP. I'm on boards with tiny developers who are way more engaged and proactive. I think the webinars MOTU provided are a step in the right direction, as was their detailed fixed bug list with the last update. But Its always nice when the captain gets on the PA and explains why the plane is circling the airport for hours. I'd like to know, why o why, for example some of the surround panners have been broken for literally over a decade especially for a product aimed at pro level A/V sound production.

Peace and s

FMiguelez wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:09 am I love DP to death. It has taken many steps in the right direction lately, and it has grabbed quite a few new users along the way.

There are just 2 things that really annoy me about MOTU/DP> That they seem to take forever to do needed updates (especially lately) and that DP is full of things that almost work but not quite... This is especially annoying when it's obvious that just a little more time and love from the programmers could quickly and easily fix these things, making them much more useful and attractive for everyone.
MOTU can definitely use a couple more programmers. I know they're a small company, but not that small that they couldn't afford this. The increased new sales alone would pay their salaries easily.

About DP being more "modernized", I agree it needs a major overhaul in quite a few areas. For instance, the included plugins are nowhere near as useful as they could be, especially if you compare them to what the competition has to offer...
It's hard to believe MW EQ doesn't have a mere output gain knob for the crucial task of matching the loudness when bypassed, or that the MW compressor doesn't have an external side chain, let alone a side chain filter. Same with the Dynamic EQ (which is otherwise awesome)> Why not add an external side chain with filters in there too? It would instantaneously make them twice as useful and versatile!

Trim should be added to be part of the mixer below the pan pots, just like VEP does, so one can control any aspect of the stereo image right there, with instant visual feedback, without opening anything. How about adding mute buttons and an M/S facility in Trim?; and a slick RMS/Peak/LUFS meter? Hell, how about adding an M/S facility to ALL their plugins as a feature, like so many vendors do?
Also, optional x4 oversampling should be added to all the non-linear function plugins (and add a new and awesome saturation/distortion one, while you're at it).

Guitar Gaz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:09 pm

Michael Canavan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:36 am DP might not be in the top 5 DAWs out there, (Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Live, FL Studio) but it sits in the second tier nicely next to the others, (Bitwig, Reap, what's left of Sonar, Reason, Studio One, Samplitude etc.) ....

I still use DP at times, but I think you are way out of date by regarding Studio One as second tier.

Yeah, Studio One would be first in line second tier for sure, but Logic, Pro Tools, Live and FL Studio are way ahead of everyone else.

Michael Canavan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:16 pm

Guitar Gaz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:09 pm

Michael Canavan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:36 am DP might not be in the top 5 DAWs out there, (Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Live, FL Studio) but it sits in the second tier nicely next to the others, (Bitwig, Reap, what's left of Sonar, Reason, Studio One, Samplitude etc.) ....

I still use DP at times, but I think you are way out of date by regarding Studio One as second tier.

Yeah, Studio One would be first in line second tier for sure, but Logic, Pro Tools, Live and FL Studio are way ahead of everyone else.

I think you will find this has changed over the last few years particularly with the advent of Sphere - a lot have switched from Pro Tools and Cubase. But I don't need to bang any Studio One drum - it is doing that industry wide as more discover it. This is a DP forum but as Studio One was mentioned initially in the same bracket as Reaper and Bitwig I just felt I had to clarify that this is not really what is happening out there.