Switching from Mac Pro 5,1 to Windows Build with DP 10

[chrisdm1978]

Hello,
Looking for advice from DP users regarding stability on Windows. I've been a DP user since version 4 on mac. I'm currently on a Mac Pro 5,1 dual 3.46GHz xeon, 96GB Ram, PCie SSD etc. Using DP 10 with El Capitan. My current interface is a Lynx Aurora, legacy version. I run a recording studio, and do film composing work as well. I'm looking to build a modern powerful machine for scoring and am curious about how DP 10 is on Windows 10. Theoretically all my hardware and software are compatible with Windows 10, but of course am concerned about moving. I just know I can build a powerful system for much less then the new mac pro 7,1. Can anyone here share their experience with DP on the Windows side? Considering building around an i9 9900KS or possibly a i9 10980xe CPU with a gigabit Designare motherboard. NVME for boot and sample library drives. Not really interested in building a hackintosh, though my proposed build would work either way. I couldn't seem to find reviews by of DP by people using it on windows. Any insights would be appreciated.

[mikehalloran]

There's a recent thread on this but I can't find it. Remember that Windows does not support AU and you should be ok. If you used a lot of 3rd party plugs and VIs, expect to do a lot of tweaking on older projects.

Lots of people using DP on Windows so I wouldn't be afraid of that.

I just know I can build a powerful system for much less then the new mac pro 7,1

A powerful machine? Sure. As powerful? No way — otherwise, the next Mac Pro wouldn't be designed to compete with Win10 AV rendering stations that cost from $24k (8 core 128GB RAM 1TB SSD) – $150k (56 core 1TB RAM 8TB SSD) in use by the film industry. Apple is promising that the next MP can run 1,000 instances of Kontakt and will not need slave machines for VEP. Now you may not need that kind of horsepower (I don't) but a PC up to that task will not be cheap.

Apple uses off the shelf components for the most part and those prices are known. Apple's upgrades are priced nearly identically to those same components at Fry's. I expect that a 16 core 7.1 built the way I would want incl. a 27" 5K LG will cost in the $9,000 range (the new $6k matching monitor—I'm not the customer for that). When I found a 14 core iMac Pro for a lot less, I jumped on it.

[bayswater]

I’ve been down this rabbit hole a few times. My conclusion is that its not so much the cost of a PC versus a Mac, as the cost of switching.

First, the old “twice the power for half the cost” line is bunk. When like for like is compared, the PC will usually if not always be cheaper, but the difference is in hundreds, not thousands.

Second, you have the cost of the OS, utilities and updates over the life of the machine.

Third, you have some cost associated with software you have to buy to replace some Mac only items. (E.g. in my case, a replacement for DSP-Quattro).

And then there is the time associated with the setup. Just updating to a new Mac takes up enough time, but moving to a PC with the learning curve and the lower level of standardization in the PC world will take longer. Cost out your billable hours at your local minimum wage thinking about buying, configuration, time with tech support, downloading hundreds of plugins, remembering dozens of bizzare authorization schemes, and getting yourself up the the same level of productivity and toss that into the equation.

Finally, something that only people who do business cases would consider, is the residual value of the Mac and whether that has to be abandoned.

This is NOT a Macs are better than PCs argument. If anything switching from a PC to a Mac would be even more expensive. If you had a nice working PC setup you’d be hard pressed to come up with an argument for switching.

[chrisdm1978]

Hey guys,
Thanks for the insights, wasn't sure I'd get any responses. I'm not too worried about re-setting up all software, plugins, libraries, OS, as even if I were to move my current Mac Pro 5,1 to mojave for a little more longevity I'd likely do a clean install. Though I get what you are saying about older projects and having to do a lot of tweaking to likely get them to open. I imagine, there will be a fair bit of tweaking with Catalina, noting that pretty much every major pro audio company is saying don't update yet ! So I think in either case I will have some configuration and software update growing pains, but of course more to go to PC. Not really worried about resale value, I've had my 5,1 for almost 10 years and don't plan to get rid of it when I update, it's been a good machine. I've priced out a powerful build on a PC for about $4500 Canadian. I think a decent spec 7,1 will come in at between 8-10K in Canadian dollars, without their monitor or stand lol. I'm sure it's a beast, but not sure the wallet will allow for it. Interestingly, I saw the 16 inch macbook pro now supports 64GB Ram. But I don't think I'd be comfortable running my business on a machine where I couldn't just swap out a failing drive or whatever without having shipping it off. I live in Northern Alberta, so a little more isolated here. Apple store is like 5 hours away. It will be interesting though to see some benchmarks on the 7,1. Would you guys say higher base clock and single core score is more important vs more cores and multicore score in DP? I know more cores will give you more virtual instruments which is big for scoring, but also like low latency with powerful single core score, which is why I'm considering the i9 9900KS. ( I know iMac 5k has a i9 9900K, but really don't want iMac form factor) I noticed on my mac pro 5,1 it got slower on some things when I put the 12 core cpu tray in vs the 6 core. Does play more VIs though with the 12 core. I think more cores helps with Pre Gen stuff in DP. Where it chokes is running large templates with synths like Omnisphere etc, or heavily scripted VIs like Virharmonic's Bohemian Violin. Either way I should probably wait and see the benchmarks on the 7,1 and actual BTO pricing in CAD $.

[toddbooster]

In addition to no AU support, there is also no EUCON support, if that matters to you.

I was also going to make a comment about immediately saving $1000 on the monitor stand

Anyway, I think DP is in a good place on Windows. It's pretty much stable, performs in line with expectations etc. I think you'll be perfectly happy if you want to make the switch.

[mikehalloran]

Would you guys say higher base clock and single core score is more important vs more cores and multicore score in DP?

Not for a second. If it were true, high performance specialty single and duo core CPUs would exist. They don't and Intel could certainly build them if there was a need. This doesn't prevent armchair idio.. er... experts armed with tons of stats and zero knowledge from trying to make the opposite case.

Each Instance uses only one core. If you create an Instance for each VI, the OS will balance them among the cores. Although the Apple demos are using Logic, the same is true for DP. I don't know about the 12 core 5.1 but a 12 core 6.1 handles 150 instances with a convo reverb and another plug on each, a 10 core iMac Pro can run 300 without strain and the 7.1 runs 1,000 — Apple wasn't saying how many cores.

Yea, you don't want to open one up. I get that but, for audio, it's not really an issue. An 8 Core, basic iMac Pro will run circles around a (non-hot-rodded) 12 core 5.1 on many tasks including number of tracks. These can be found within your budget.

There are threads here about hot-rodding a 5.1 Mac Pro—if you want to build and save money, that's where I'd go. Nothing in DP requires a later OS than High Sierra and I expect that it will be a couple years before that changes. As Bays put it so well:

This is NOT a Macs are better than PCs argument. If anything switching from a PC to a Mac would be even more expensive. If you had a nice working PC setup you’d be hard pressed to come up with an argument for switching.

Exactly.

I spend years on a Win support desk for a previous employer. I know my way around both platforms and live smack dab in the Silicon Valley where most of my friends have built PCs — including every Apple engineer I know. Regular trips to Fry's (it started here) ... I know what it costs to build.

[Michael Canavan]

Would you guys say higher base clock and single core score is more important vs more cores and multicore score in DP?

Not for a second. If it were true, high performance specialty single and duo core CPUs would exist. They don't and Intel could certainly build them if there was a need. This doesn't prevent armchair idio.. er... experts armed with tons of stats and zero knowledge from trying to make the opposite case.

Not at all trying to be an armchair expert, but I was under the impression that we're not seeing faster chips because we've reached a limit technically at this time. A 10Ghz chip for instance would draw too much power and be too expensive to build etc. compared to three 4Ghz chips.
The only area where high Ghz chips win out with DAWs like DP is with single tracks, so mastering is a concern. If someone was to say they generally ran a few tracks, and did their own mastering I would direct them towards higher ghz imacs with less cores and visa versa.

Each Instance uses only one core. If you create an Instance for each VI, the OS will balance them among the cores. Although the Apple demos are using Logic, the same is true for DP. I don't know about the 12 core 5.1 but a 12 core 6.1 handles 150 instances with a convo reverb and another plug on each, a 10 core iMac Pro can run 300 without strain and the 7.1 runs 1,000 — Apple wasn't saying how many cores.

Probably the 28 core top of the line, Apple doesn't hold back that way. This is why for high track count work more cores is always better for sure.

Personally I would consider building a PC for a VEP server over switching platforms. I hate to say this, but the classic cheese grater Mac Pros are on their last legs as well. A couple new plug ins require AVX and newer instruction sets that the old Xeon's in our machines don't do.
https://support.native-instruments.com/ ... 1567623284

This is the beginning, so personally I would warn people that you're stuck with what's out now etc. with the classic Mac Pros. I'm keeping mine for 32 bit support and as a VEP server in the future, but at some point I'll switch to a modern laptop for daily driving.

[bayswater]

I live in Northern Alberta, so a little more isolated here. Apple store is like 5 hours away.

That's a consideration. I bet there are more Windows heads than Mac gurus in your town.

(I drove through there a few years ago, and got stopped by the RCMP for going 170k in a 90 zone. You don't even notice these things after 5 hours on that highway.)

[chrisdm1978]

Thanks all for the info. Yeah my 5,1 is already hot rodded at dual 3.46 Ghz xeons (12 cores) with 96GB Ram, Pcie SSDs etc. Just not the GPU cause I'm still on El Cap and haven't needed to. It does pretty well for track count, and I do split VI's up across instances. But just looking forward to the future. Was aware of the AVX thing with NI's Massive. Will keep my old cheese grater for access to old projects. I will take into account all your advice upon moving forward. Would like to keep everything on one computer if possible vs using Vienna Pro, though I know lots of scoring guys do it that way. I make it work with Vracks. The old 5,1 has served me well and I've loved being able to upgrade it over the years as I needed. Thanks again for your comments.

[mikehalloran]

Interesting... The Apple Refurb Store for Canada is identical to the US except that the prices are in CA $.
https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/refurbish ... c-imac-pro

Although it’s logical, I had no idea. This is not true for other countries.

Here’s the US Refurb Store
https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/ ... c-imac-pro

[chrisdm1978]

Cool, my 5,1 was actually a refurb when I bought it . Doubt there will be any refurb 7,1s for quite some time haha. But Perhaps make the 5,1 last a while longer and buy refurb 7,1 down the line.

Cheers.

[bayswater]

The Apple Refurb Store for Canada is identical to the US except that the prices are in CA $.

Although it’s logical, I had no idea. This is not true for other countries.

NAFTA and proximity. Lots of distributors rent warehouse space near the border.

[mikehalloran]

Cool, my 5,1 was actually a refurb when I bought it . Doubt there will be any refurb 7,1s for quite some time haha. But Perhaps make the 5,1 last a while longer and buy refurb 7,1 down the line.

Cheers.

Apple surprised everybody in July when they lowered the price of storage and CPU upgrades but not RAM.

Till then it was less expensive to get a Mini or IMP with the base amount of storage and add a TB3 Samsung X5 .5TB $200, 1TB $400, 2TB $800. After mid July, the storage upgrade on a Mini is .5TB $200, 1TB $400, 2TB $800. Hmmm... Storage for the iMP is now 1TB (base) 2TB $400, 4TB $1,000 — which is right in line.

Apple has already announced that storage in the 7.1 will use the same chips as the Mini and iMac Pro so, even though we don't know all of the upgrade pricing, we do know what the SSDs will cost. Likewise, the CPUs are known as is that pricing.

With OWC already carrying the RAM for the base through 20 core and it being user serviceable (yes!), the 24/28 core RAM is also known as are sources and pricing, estimating a BTO that would meet my needs wasn't hard knowing the $5999 base price.

[chrisdm1978]

Mike I had a quick question about transferring projects to Windows if I decide to go that route. So if I understand correctly, projects that I've already used AU versions of instruments or plugins would not just open on windows even if those instruments and plugins are available as VST? So one would have to swap out the AU versions for VST versions with same settings in the project being transferred? (What a pain that would be) Or is DP smart enough to translate and open the plugs as VST in windows with all saved settings that were in AU on the mac (I'm assuming this is not the case, DOH) I'd keep the 5,1 any way for old projects. Moving forward I suppose one would have to enable all VST plugins in DP on the mac if I wanted to use the 5,1 as a backup in case I had issues with the windows machine for newly created windows projects. Just trying to wrap my head around the pain in the ass factor of windows vs just staying on Mac. The power of say a 16core Ryzen 3950x is intriguing or even Intel i9 10980xe since intel slashed prices, but sigh..... windows. I heard Ryzen had more latency at very low buffer due to Numa or 2 chips on one die, but it hasn't been that much of an issue on my Dual CPU 5,1.

[mikehalloran]

Anything that uses MOTU’s MAS plugs should port right ove.

You really want to switch from AU to VST before copying over. Depending on the plugin, you will probably do some tweaking — on how many, no one will know. If you wait till afterwards, it may be the same if you’re lucky or more complicated if you’re not.

One thing. Zip your project folders on the Mac before moving over and unzip on the new machine.