MOTUnation.com

I don't see any online reviews for these -- maybe to early. Does anyone have one? Do you think it sounds noticeably better than other MOTU converters? Something simple that sounds good and isn't insanely expensive might be the thing, particularly with DP's ability to use multiple interfaces.

bayswater wrote:I don't see any online reviews for these -- maybe to early. Does anyone have one? Do you think it sounds noticeably better than other MOTU converters? Something simple that sounds good and isn't insanely expensive might be the thing, particularly with DP's ability to use multiple interfaces.

Had I seen it 2 weeks ago, I would have bought the M4. Instead, I bought the 6 channel version of this Mackie from Sweetwater. Except for the other two channels being stereo, the basic functionality appears to be the same (I’m unlikely to ever use the effects).
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... th-effects

Putting it through its paces right now. If it doesn’t measure up, back it goes and I’ll buy the M4.

Although it has a USB-C connector, the underlying protocol is USB 2.

I just clicked the SW banner link and ordered the M4. They aren't in stock yet, but I thought I'd get on the train. I had already bought a presonus audiobox iTwo, which I may keep or not.

I'm planning to use the M4 for iPad synths, MIDI in to iPad, Audio out of iPad. I maybe be able to connect a USB hub and use both a USB MIDI controller and the M4 at once. I didn't see a power requirement, so I guess we'll see what's possible.

The specs look good, especially the low latency.

I can't really use the iPad for effects because the latency is terrible. But there may be some things that might work with the M4. Hard to say.

Please let us know what you think when it arrives.

Will do. Don't know when they ship.

The M2/4 advertised low latency of 2.5 ms to 96kHz is conditioned on installing the MOTU drivers for Mac or PC. For higher resolution, iOS, Android etc., you are using the available native class compliant drivers — pretty good and “near zero” latency is dependent on buffer settings as I’ve been finding out testing the Mackie PROFXV3 that I bought.

There are a large number of similar devices either on the market or coming soon. Each promises small footprint, high quality mic pres and DAC. Most have MIDI but not all (such as the PROFXV3). All the new ones have a blend control between input and return. With headphones, you can hear that the tiny bit of latency by setting the knob in the middle.

There is no such thing as true zero latency but many ways to get really close or fake it including CueMix. FireWire and USB 1.1, as in MOTU’s older interfaces, required it. USB2 makes this easier—I wonder what took them so long? New ICs, no doubt.

I have recent experience with USB3 and the latency is undetectable unless comparing phase and transient anomalies. Recent iPads support USB3 through the Lightening connector. Monitoring through the audio jack in this USB hub through the Apple CCK, I can’t hear any when preforming. Not bad for $18.
https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-External- ... 9262&psc=1

So, staying under $250, all the following support 192kHz/24bit. Bus power and MIDI (except as noted). All have a mix/blend control between the input and return and come with good software packages.

MOTU M2 ($169) or M4 ($219) advertises high end DACs and ultra-low latency USB2 drivers for Mac/PC. The M4 has additional 2x2 line in and output for $50 more..

Mackie ONYX Pro ($179) is similar to the M2 — advertises their Onyx preamps. Doesn’t appear to have a low-latency driver available but reviews say it is lower than the Focusrite Scarlett.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... xQQAvD_BwE

Mackie PROFXV3 6 ($149) to 30 channels in, no MIDI or bus power. Has Onyx pres (2–25), laid out flat like the mixer it is and you can bring in an additional 2 channel mix via USB by rerouting the last stereo channel. I’ve been testing The 6 channel version.

NI Komplete Audio 6 ($249) is interesting. Has 2 headphone outs. The master fader and meters are on top of the box (I like that a lot).
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/p ... e-audio-6/

Steinberg UR22C ($189) is similar to the M2 but it is USB3. Besides a USB3 or 3.1 port, Mac requirements are Sierra or later. Needs 5V bus power — you’ll want an iPhone charger if using with iOS (use an iPhone or iPad charger with the Apple CCK and it will be fine).
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -interface

I like that Mackie I bought but it’s going back. for remote recording, I want more mic pres as I normally record 3-channel stereo. No problem—up to 25 are available on the larger models. I think I can trust that the DACs are good enough. Don’t know which size I’ll get. As desktop space is at a premium for me, even the 6 channel is a little too big—I just don’t need the onboard effects.

For my desktop, that’s different. I need 2 audio channels in—had the M2 been available, I would have bought. I want the compactness and high end DACs of the M2 with the top fader and meters of the Komplete 6 but don’t need the additional bells & whistles.

I really, really wish that MOTU had built the M2/M4 with USB3 — that would make it a no-brainer – but they didn’t. I may go with the Steinberg. Need to do a bit more research, I suppose.

For me latency is not much of an issue. I always do direct monitoring while recording and for everything else set it to 512 or whatever is needed to keep things cool.

I'm a lot more interested in the sound quality. Something noticeably better than my current Focusrite 18i8 for ~$200 is a no brainer. Would I expect this to sound noticeably better that my 828-3? The Focusrite sometimes does, but not consistently.

Hello fellow Motu Nationers,

Longtime DP guy since Performer 1.0 MIDI only.

Apple systems engineer (as well as pro guitarist). I really hope MOTU starts to look at the new USB4 spec/protocol, which is essentially Thunderbolt 3 (TB3), but with zero Thunderbolt / Intel licensing / royalty fees.

Look at any TB2 or TB3 audio interface and they start at $600, and go up, maybe way up) from there, this is due to the TB / Intel license cost.

I know USB 2.0 audio class boasts 2.5 and under ms latency, but anytime I am presented with any interface using USB (2.0 even audio class) for audio even two track stereo (nylon) guitar recording, there is audible latency and you essentially cannot monitor in headphones. I am then reaching for my Thunderbolt interface (in this case Focusrite Clarett 8), with DP 10x.

This NAMM 2020 could we see USB4 MOTU interfaces, 2, 4, 8 inputs? Why is this M2 and M4 offered rather inexpensively, I argue it's USB 2 with zero licensing, enter USB4 under same zero cost licensing and we have something here.

In any event, with USB4 upon us it makes too much sense for the audio industry to use it, my next MOTU or any other audio interface would be USB4, I'll wait for it. USB4 will carry us for the next 10-15 years.

I suspect we will see it in 2020, and all the major audio hardware manufactures will be "sporting" it at the trade shows.

macnylonguitar wrote:Hello fellow Motu Nationers,
...
I know USB 2.0 audio class boasts 2.5 and under ms latency, but anytime I am presented with any interface using USB (2.0 even audio class) for audio even two track stereo (nylon) guitar recording, there is audible latency and you essentially cannot monitor in headphones.

Well, those MOTU drivers are supposed to have 2.5 round trip but the units haven't shipped and no one's heard them.

macnylonguitar wrote:This NAMM 2020 could we see USB4 MOTU interfaces, 2, 4, 8 inputs? Why is this M2 and M4 offered rather inexpensively, I argue it's USB 2 with zero licensing, enter USB4 under same zero cost licensing and we have something here. ...

If this was January, I might agree but it's November and NAMM is just over 2 months away so I just gotta disagree. Why USB2 and not 3? I'm think that MOTU's drivers are close enough that they are betting on bringing that speed to more customers such as those who have Macs older than 2017.

Google USB3 interfaces and whose out there offering it now? Steinberg is all I can find and, like the new Mackie, those have just begun shipping. UAD has one bare-bones USB3 unit for $899 and isn't even bus powered (I'll pass). https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... th-uad-dsp

Otherwise, UAD has gone all in on TB3. Licensing? You mean that someone other than Intel might be selling the ICs that make TB audio possible? Ok... haven't heard of anyone.

macnylonguitar wrote:I suspect we will see it in 2020, and all the major audio hardware manufactures will be "sporting" it at the trade shows.

I'm not holding my breath. Steinberg releasing USB 3 in October and MOTU with enhanced USB 2 argues against this. We'll know in 9 1/2 weeks.

bayswater wrote:For me latency is not much of an issue. I always do direct monitoring while recording and for everything else set it to 512 or whatever is needed to keep things cool.

I'm a lot more interested in the sound quality. Something noticeably better than my current Focusrite 18i8 for ~$200 is a no brainer. Would I expect this to sound noticeably better that my 828-3? The Focusrite sometimes does, but not consistently.

I'm pretty much the same way on my desk. My 828mkII still sounds good.

I could live with the PROFXV3 6 if it weren't for the size vis á vis the number of mic pres so, If I'm going smaller, I'll do it with the M2 or Steinberg. One of the larger PROFXV3 mixers will be fine for my portable rig—needs to weigh less than my 1402 VLZ Pro without being larger.

Fortunately, I'm not in a hurry. My 828mkII works. I'll likely wait for NAMM — that's a great suggestion.

mikehalloran wrote:I'm pretty much the same way on my desk. My 828mkII still sounds good.

I could live with the PROFXV3 6 if it weren't for the size vis á vis the number of mic pres so, If I'm going smaller, I'll do it with the M2 or Steinberg. One of the larger PROFXV3 mixers will be fine for my portable rig—needs to weigh less than my 1402 VLZ Pro without being larger.

Fortunately, I'm not in a hurry. My 828mkII works. I'll likely wait for NAMM — that's a great suggestion.

Yes, my 828-3 and the Focusrite 18i8 sound good. I have in my mind's ear the sound of equipment at a studio at a local university, and my stuff is short of that standard for clarity and transients. I don't need the 64 channels they have, but "that sound" in two or four channels for a reasonable price would be fine. Like you I'm not in a hurry. I'm always on the lookout for something that will make a difference.

On USB 4, I don't know. It seems like an endless merry-go-round. I can live with a latency of 2.5 msec. I can't help but remember that sound travels about 350 meters per second , so when I was playing in bands, I was hearing my guitar at least 10 ms late. Until I got digital equipment, I wasn't aware this was a problem.

With the direct input monitoring, it resolves some of the latency for tracking concerns.

We'll see if the iPad can ever be used for effects. So far it's got too much latency and/or audio glitches (at low buffer settings). For mixing, it's fine. Not for live.

I don't expect the M4 (or M2) to change anything about that. If the lowest latency requires custom drivers, then probably the iOS performance will be more "typical".

I’d be curious to know how the M2/M4 stack up against the Apogee Element 24 or Apollo Twin (the “higher end” portable interfaces, that is). Yes, there are some I/O differences (ADAT etc.), but they are close. With those boxes costing $400–$1,000 more, is that extra cost purely for thunderbolt, extra digital I/O, and UAD’s hardware modeling, etc.?

I’m mainly working with VI’s, so that’s why I ask.

The UAD I pointed to is USB3 and it's $899. It promises Near-zero (sub-2ms) latency which is what I expect from USB3 but there's a catch: Windows only. Deal killer for me, of course. It also has ADAT in and other bells and whistles.

UAD is known for high end mic pres and advertises Sabre32 DACs — as MOTU and others are now using. I'm betting that the Sabre32 Ultra DAC is now on a single chip at a lower price — good for everybody, right?


The Steinberg promises USB3 but has drivers for superspeed 3.1 Mac/Win. Does this mean USB 3.0 is class compliant? Although I'm thinking, yes, anything Steinberg is Japanese to German to English by the time we see it — as if superspeed isn't a clue. The reason being that superspeed is normally USB 3.0 while USB 3.1 is supposed to be superspeed+. Interestingly, Steinberg says that their drivers now support USB 2 — I think — interesting if true (2 and 3 are separate protocols). Are the Yamaha D mic pres that Steinberg touts superior or is it just Marketing propaganda (Yamaha owns Steinberg)? So many unknowns.

I have no idea if a 3.0 interface would allow one to use effects over iOS. I use the UGREEN USB3 audio hub I linked to earlier with my keyboards when performing live and hear no latency—but my rig is simple and I'm not using effects on my iPad Pro while performing.

Anyway, getting off this for awhile. There's more to learn. If more USB 3 interfaces show up at NAMM in January, I'm sure that the marketing departments will try to drown us in nonsense, from which we might try to figure out some truth.

I’m wondering about the M2/4 compatibility with the Mac T2 chip without using a TB hub.

Sknydpr wrote:I’m wondering about the M2/4 compatibility with the Mac T2 chip without using a TB hub.

Apple fixed that in OS 10.14.4. MOTU devices were never affected by that issue.

If you're thinking of the older USB 1.1 incompatibility with USB 3, that may still be an issue but it has nothing to do with the T2. Unless a MOTU device says USB 2 as the newer ones do, they are USB 1.1. I don't know how that was eventually resolved other than with hubs that had separate outputs for 1.1/2.0 and 3.0.