DP 9 and 10 Cannot read heavy automation well, Proven!

[toodamnhip]

I am sorry to say, but I have concluded that DP 9 and 10 do not read heavy automation well or properly.
DP 8.07 is the last version that is effective in a project with heavy automation.

I have tested this thoroughly. Here is what I have done to "prove" this.

1) I have a long history of Dp 9 through 10 NOT being able to read heavily automated files properly. However, I never quite knew if this was something having to do with my particular equipment or no.t Having been through several different machines and operating systems over the years, I still had to leave room for doubt. I didn't think it was anything in my particular system, but I DID allow room for that possibility.
2) I recently bought a new trash can Mac, fully loaded, and did a complete Re install from scratch. Not "migration assistance anywhere. This is a CLEAN system.

3) I ran it on DP 8.07 for quite sometime, and saw that it ran fine in 8.07. I was running in Sierra.-10.12.6

4) Knowing I was ready to "TRY" to upgrade to Mohave, I felt it safe to install 9.52 and 10.01. Both FAILED at reading automation properly, with various passes through a song resulting in improper automation reads. Very inconsistent. One pass with find a reverb too loud, another the vocal would be at the wrong volume, etc. Different unpredictable problems, just like I had had all the prior years, except this is on a new Trash can Mac with a clean OS. This showed me the prior machine was NOT the problem. OK...maybe it is the operating System....

5) I upgraded the system to Mohave. I now had a new computer, clean install, and the latest OS.
BOTH 9.5 and 10.01 failed to read properly. Same as Sierra.
Except now, DP 8.07 crashed all the time as it is not really supported in Mohave.

6) I had to do a system restore from a Toem Machine back up to get BACK to Sierra. Now, DP 8.07 works great.

7) Thus, I have been through a new machine, new install, Operating systems Sirra through Mohave, and all possible configurations. I did all of this with a highly trained technical assistant who is quite accomplished at computers and the like.

It is sad for me to see DP not read for prime time when it comes to heavily automated files.

I re-assert my prior statements that DP has major design flaws with its ramping automation. And now, without any doubt, having been through the gamut of new machines and new operating systems, I can also assert it cannot read heavy automation past DP 8.07.

If I had to make an "experienced" guess, I would say that much of DP's automation algorithms are from its earlier incarnations, and that when DP designed it's latest "next gen pre gen 2", it never redesigned its original automation paradigms. Automation has long been a major weakness in DP for me, starting with its original "automation ramping" design. MOTU used to "boast" about "smooth ramping", where pasting automation would result in a gradual ramp from one number to whatever # the paste was at. i.e., pasting a level 100 at bar 50 would gradually ramp from wherever there was an earlier value, (sometime ramping for 50 bars gradually). This was a design error, as what it really means is any paste of automation by a user, changes earlier and later automation before and after the pasted area. It is insane to think any user would want the pasting of a chorus at bar 50, to change anything before or after the paste. Imagine a word processor where you pasted in a paragraph and it changed the words in the prior and subsequent paragraph in some random way? Who would EVER want that? Thus, we have MOTU with an initial bad, even "weird" design in its automation. And this weakness in the area of automation continues to this day I am sad to say, with heavily automated files failing to properly play back after 8.07 in a variety of operating systems.

And thus, I am stuck in Sierra, with a brand new machine. It is only a matter of time till staying back in Sierra will be impossible. Then what? Are you listening MOTU?

[terrybritton]

It does not necessarily follow that bad design example "A" is the cause of or is related to bad design example "B". We likely have two bad design issues! It is all speculation as to why 8.07 works and 9.53 and 10.01 don't in your OP.

So, back to the issues concerning reading heavy automation - what exactly is happening??? You say that upon subsequent loads of a project that the volumes are seemingly randomly differing between loads? Can you prove that part first? Then I'd say things were actually "proven".

Note: I do not use DP for mixing or mastering, only for tracking and for multi-tracking with MIDI/VSTi's. So automation there is not something I've ever played with.

Terry

[Phil O]

TDH, if you can get me a copy of a problematic project, I would be happy to test it on my trash can running Mojave and DP 10.01 to see if I can reproduce the problem. The only issue is I won't have the same VIs and plugins as you. Have you tried running those projects with VIs and plugins turned off? Perhaps it's something else that is causing the problem.

Phil

[toodamnhip]

Hey guys, thanks for the offers to test, but testing without the full gamut of plug ins I use would be of little value.

One of you mentioned not automating much and that reminds me of several industry folks I have spoken with that have told me-- "no man, I don't "mix" in DP". I port out to Pro Tools. "DP isn't made for mixing"...lol

Well, if we are not supposed to really mix in DP, that's kind of strange isn't it? Then MOTU should state that as a fact!

DP MUST work within REALITY. That means the full gamut of this world's plug ins, or at least the main ones that have been around forever like Waves etc.

I think what "proves' DP has big automation problems is the fact that through SEVERAL operating systems, close to a decade of observation, new computers with clean installs etc, DP 8.07 can CONSISTENTLY read heavy automation. It has for years. This means DP CAN work!!! And DP 9 on has consistently failed.
It means after all the "blah blah" about 3rd party plugs and whether it is some how MY fault for my one of a kind , somehow strange operating system< (which it isn't), it CAN work in 8.07 and HAS worked through many computers and various OS's IN 8.07.
If it never worked at all, never worked in 8.07, then we could wonder if 3rd party plug ins are the culprit, or if I am retarded and do things wrong or mess up my own systems. But if DP DOES and has worked in 8.07, then it SHOULD work in 9.52 and 10.01. And it PROVES an inconsistency in DP period! It points the error finger squarely at DP and NOT 3rd party plug ins. There's just too much data and years of experiment to conclude other than DP is jacked up in it's automation handling after 8.07. Sorry to say.

[toodamnhip]

It does not necessarily follow that bad design example "A" is the cause of or is related to bad design example "B". We likely have two bad design issues! It is all speculation as to why 8.07 works and 9.53 and 10.01 don't in your OP.

So, back to the issues concerning reading heavy automation - what exactly is happening??? You say that upon subsequent loads of a project that the volumes are seemingly randomly differing between loads? Can you prove that part first? Then I'd say things were actually "proven".

Note: I do not use DP for mixing or mastering, only for tracking and for multi-tracking with MIDI/VSTi's. So automation there is not something I've ever played with.

Terry

Not subsequent loads of a project, subsequent passes through any given section by hitting "play". Hit Play- Reverb too loud, stop, hit play, vocal buried, stop, set to different start point just to try to let DP "breath more", drums too loud....every pass different, automation just not reading correctly. It only starts happening after a file gets past a certain "make break point" where the automation must be somehow too much. And again, only in 8.07. So, for example, I used to work in 9.52 for awhile because it has MIDI mutes. And that would be fine for quite awhile. Then, once automation gets past some unknowable data log jam point, automation starts becoming inconsistent. I then have to erase the muted MIDI notes and resume work in DP 8.07, upon which Dp reads automation fine. None of this is repairable by any known remedies such as buffer size or any of the available adjustments. Nor is it repairable by creating a fresh file and reimporting the old file. Nothing fixes it except going to 8.07.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

FWIW, it seems that folks with 12 core machines tend to have more performance issues that one might expect. There’s too much to unpack in this thread. How are the VIs distributed across the cpu? If not properly setup to account for heavily scripted and large VIs you might only be using one of your 12 cores.

[toodamnhip]

FWIW, it seems that folks with 12 core machines tend to have more performance issues that one might expect. There’s too much to unpack in this thread. How are the VIs distributed across the cpu? If not properly setup to account for heavily scripted and large VIs you might only be using one of your 12 cores.

1) VIs-running in Vienna Pro. Have tested in both external server machines and local.
2) Happens in many operating systems, and various 12 core machines throughout the years. Same results in a variety of combinations enough to prove to me its a DP issue.
3) Happens after VIs have been bounced to audio. So really not related to VIs.
4) I think everyone who reads this thread should really take notice of the gamut of machines and operating systems I have tested this one, as well as the numbers of years and different scenarios that have all had the same result. I know its hard to agree DP is screwed up, I know it is quite a statement. I don't like making the statement. But I have been through many many variations of OS, computer, DP version etc, And again, it WORKS in 8.07 in all of them. This shows me it is DP and not the other variables. It WORKS in 8.07. in ALL of these other scenarios, computers, OS's etc. Only fails to run at all in Mohave because Mohave doesn't seem to support 8.07, IN CLEAN BOOT mode by the way with NO plug ins. Must face!! lol

[toodamnhip]

May have forgotten to add that I tested all of this in High Sierra before moving to Mohave. All results same from Sierra to High Sierra to Mohave.

[Phil O]

Can you give us a clue as to when you are seeing the failure. Tell us, for example, how many audio/MIDI tracks/VIs. How many automation lanes. Is most of the automation on MIDI tracks or audio? I would like to experiment with this and see what the limits are on my setup.

Also, something else comes to mind. MOTU has changed some of the settings in DP, but I can't remember when those changes came about. Remember when there were 3 settings - prime seconds, work quanta, and max work percent? Now there's only prime seconds (unless I'm missing something). Have you experimented with that value? Perhaps the default is not appropriate for your situation. Just thinking out loud.

Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Looking at the sig of the o/p when I see “almost everything out there” in reference to VIs and plugs, presumably, part of the problem comes into focus. In and of itself, that’s a red flag. How many of those items need updates? How many may have been acquired by... shall we say: less reliable 3rd parties?

Right off the bat, if any Waves plugs are being used I’d suspect that and pull it from the chain. I’d also try working w/o ANY 3rd party plugs. I’d also try some experimentation on other machines with clean installs of everything, again, w/o all the installed “everything.”

One could also make a psychological profile of a user who ‘needs’ “everything” tending to overly use automation to an unnecessary/ excessive degree. Unfortunately I’m not a psychologist and didn’t even stay at a Holiday Inn last night AFAIK. LOL

I don’t doubt the o/p is accurately reporting the issue. What is suspect is the lack of details about how much of “everything” is being used, what automation is being employed and to what extent, yadda yadda yadda. What I remain unconvinced of is that it is clear that DP is the primary cause of the issues at hand.

[Michael Canavan]

Looking at the sig of the o/p when I see “almost everything out there” in reference to VIs and plugs, presumably, part of the problem comes into focus. In and of itself, that’s a red flag. How many of those items need updates? How many may have been acquired by... shall we say: less reliable 3rd parties?

We've been down this route multiple times with TDC. Plus there's some damming evidence here, he can do everything he needs to do in DP8, not 9 or 10. I suppose it's possible that DP8 doesn't follow some AU or VST protocol that 9 and 10 are following on a stricter level and that's somehow messing up automation, but that's a huge stretch. It's much more likely that something added as a new feature is messing with automation.

Right off the bat, if any Waves plugs are being used I’d suspect that and pull it from the chain. I’d also try working w/o ANY 3rd party plugs. I’d also try some experimentation on other machines with clean installs of everything, again, w/o all the installed “everything.”

Again, v8 is working, this pretty much eliminates third party plug ins from the equation. DP9 and 10's new NextGen or other new tech might be messing with certain plug ins, but it's hardly possible to blame the plug in manufacturer when an earlier version works. I this sense I do wish TDC was willing to do a native DP plug in test on this, since it might at least help some of us until MOTU figures it out.

One could also make a psychological profile of a user who ‘needs’ “everything” tending to overly use automation to an unnecessary/ excessive degree. Unfortunately I’m not a psychologist and didn’t even stay at a Holiday Inn last night AFAIK. LOL

Or one could do the opposite, make a psychological profile of a user who thinks that everyone should work the way they do, or doesn't understand others methods because they aren't his/hers. <-- see how uncomfortable that hint at pigeonholing makes one feel?

I don’t doubt the o/p is accurately reporting the issue. What is suspect is the lack of details about how much of “everything” is being used, what automation is being employed and to what extent, yadda yadda yadda. What I remain unconvinced of is that it is clear that DP is the primary cause of the issues at hand.

Personally I'm not using DP currently, DP10 doesn't read aftertouch back from the sequence. It writes it, but it does not read it back to the soft synth or hardware synth. It's a confirmed bug, and IMO a pretty big one, maybe because I've been using my hardware synths with aftertouch a lot lately I'm overtly annoyed, but really? beyond pitch, velocity, modulation wheel, and notes what's more basic for a modern synth and DAW? Considering this severe bug that still isn't addressed in 10 despite an update a while ago, I'm going to side with TDC on this.

[wvandyck]

I think what "proves' DP has big automation problems is the fact that through SEVERAL operating systems, close to a decade of observation, new computers with clean installs etc, DP 8.07 can CONSISTENTLY read heavy automation. It has for years. This means DP CAN work!!! And DP 9 on has consistently failed.

If this were clinical research, your methodology is airtight!

Has MOTU responded, even if to indicate they're looking into this?

[toodamnhip]

Can you give us a clue as to when you are seeing the failure. Tell us, for example, how many audio/MIDI tracks/VIs. How many automation lanes. Is most of the automation on MIDI tracks or audio? I would like to experiment with this and see what the limits are on my setup.

Also, something else comes to mind. MOTU has changed some of the settings in DP, but I can't remember when those changes came about. Remember when there were 3 settings - prime seconds, work quanta, and max work percent? Now there's only prime seconds (unless I'm missing something). Have you experimented with that value? Perhaps the default is not appropriate for your situation. Just thinking out loud.

Phil

It is hard to tell "when" this will happen. It is different with every file as there are obviously, different plugs and automation. I would guess that audio is the main area where all the automation lies, but there is MIDI automation too. However once things are bounced to audio, the MIDI is basically shut off because I make new blank tracks on each bounced MIDI track, "hiding" the former MIDI filled track as a sub-take. I have tried all permutations of Das adjustable setting you mentioned and found no connection between ANY setting and the automation issues. Even higher or lower buffers don't help. Basically, there seems to be some sort of point in any given file where it just starts reading automation badly, (usually after quite a bit of automation), and once the point is reached, I have to go to 8.07. Also, I HAVE worked with tech support on this a couple yrs back. and they asked I send them a file at the EXACT point it started to fail. I did so. They never got back to me or had any conclusive findings. Thanks for reaching out.

[toodamnhip]

Looking at the sig of the o/p when I see “almost everything out there” in reference to VIs and plugs, presumably, part of the problem comes into focus. In and of itself, that’s a red flag. How many of those items need updates? How many may have been acquired by... shall we say: less reliable 3rd parties?

Right off the bat, if any Waves plugs are being used I’d suspect that and pull it from the chain. I’d also try working w/o ANY 3rd party plugs. I’d also try some experimentation on other machines with clean installs of everything, again, w/o all the installed “everything.”

One could also make a psychological profile of a user who ‘needs’ “everything” tending to overly use automation to an unnecessary/ excessive degree. Unfortunately I’m not a psychologist and didn’t even stay at a Holiday Inn last night AFAIK. LOL

I don’t doubt the o/p is accurately reporting the issue. What is suspect is the lack of details about how much of “everything” is being used, what automation is being employed and to what extent, yadda yadda yadda. What I remain unconvinced of is that it is clear that DP is the primary cause of the issues at hand.

I am not sure whether you are joking or being antagonistic?
But hopefully, you understand that just because I am nice enough to share a problem for the benefit of the DP community, it doesn't;t mean I am mentally ill.
I share this data to add to the communal knowledge base. I am not here to present double blind studies and spread sheets. I think there has already been a few failures to carefully read what I wrote. It was fairly detailed, but not meant to be perfect.
For example, YOU missed what I said about a "clean install of everything", (or something like that lol). ALL software is the latest, freshly, cleanly installed. The fact that I have been through a NEW computer with fresh OS and software, at so MANY levels is WHY I can somewhat safely state I think I have "proven" this. You're not going to make me have to be a NASA scientist about all of this are you? Of course my statement can be picked apart if one wanted to. But why? It stands on its own as a pretty strait forward, honest account of a long term, DP problem. I have already gotten personal messages from members that are afraid to post in public because they feel this community is a bit "fan boy" and tends to bite the head off of anyone posting criticisms. Obviously I am a LONG time member here. I don't come here to screw around and say obviously dumb stuff. I would think that me being a veteran member around here should make it a concern to everyone when I make a post like this. I am very experienced and not a nut. Something is wrong with DP. Can I pinpoint it? No. And No, I do not use every plug in the world simultaneously. I didn't want to write them all down, thats all. My assistant has a spreadsheet of it all if it would help? lol. Its A LOT. Of course DP will run fine with just its own plug ins. That doesn't matter, NO one makes records without 3rd party plugs so that is reality DP "must face" lol. DP has failed its automation through multiple iterations of Waves. And Waves automates fine in 8.07. Did you read my post? You asked about working with other machines? I have 6 Macs in my studio at present. From OS 9 to trash can. All recent computers have manifested the SAME issue, with a variety of operating systems, for a LONG time, and with tech support growing silent after initial inquiries fail to find a resolution. I wrote that I have tested on multiple computers. If you were joking, fine, no problem. But if you are insinuating I have a mental condition and you did not even thoroughly read my post?.....wow.... Anyway, hope you were joking. Try to take what I present here somewhat at face value. Read what I wrote again. If any particular point require "reasonable" clarification, I'd be glad to.

[toodamnhip]

I think what "proves' DP has big automation problems is the fact that through SEVERAL operating systems, close to a decade of observation, new computers with clean installs etc, DP 8.07 can CONSISTENTLY read heavy automation. It has for years. This means DP CAN work!!! And DP 9 on has consistently failed.

If this were clinical research, your methodology is airtight!

Has MOTU responded, even if to indicate they're looking into this?

Thank you for your support. It is not meant to be "clinical proof". Though darn it if I don't appreciate the support, thank you. It is NOT clinical proof, but my conclusion does make a lot of sense. It most certainly shows there is a long term inconsistency between DP versions. But I would be thrilled to find out that I am wrong, and that I am stupid and should have just pushed some dumb button to make DP work perfectly. Something like "set event chasing" right? I know this program like the back of my hand, I have tried hard to deal with various automations issues, including this one, for MANY years. For sure I would love to be done with this issue. I have presented the best methodology I can to hopefully put some eyes on this in a new unit of time. I cannot stay back in Sierra forever. I sent a copy of my post to tech support. I think there are many new people working at MOTU in the last couple yrs. Maybe they will look under the hood at DOPs automation architecture and fix something. Maybe also Get rid of the dumb ramping when one pastes sections of a song around. Its really hard to mix and automate in DP, I must say.
Try past a chorus into a heavily automated file sometime. After you have done so, look under the hood and watch 250 automation points slowly drift from bar 50 to bar 100....with your reverb slowly getting wetter, your compression ration slowly strangling your rhythm guitar as it increases or what have you.....Yikes.