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I'm thinking about getting the new Mac mini with assorted peripherals and was wondering about the best place to save DP project files. The choices would seem to be the internal SSD, an external SSD, or an external traditional hard drive. I've heard that frequent saving, which of course is a normal part of DP activity, isn't good for an SSD. But I've also read that the newer SSDs don't have that issue and will last longer than I will.

Any thoughts on this? (Not how long I'll last, but where to save DP projects.)

Thanks.

Richard

remmet wrote:I'm thinking about getting the new Mac mini with assorted peripherals and was wondering about the best place to save DP project files. The choices would seem to be the internal SSD, an external SSD, or an external traditional hard drive. I've heard that frequent saving, which of course is a normal part of DP activity, isn't good for an SSD. But I've also read that the newer SSDs don't have that issue and will last longer than I will.

Any thoughts on this? (Not how long I'll last, but where to save DP projects.)

Thanks.

Richard

I looked at some reviews and tests before buying my new Mini. These said that an external thunderbolt 3 SSD is as fast, and sometimes faster than the internal SSD in the 2018 Mini, which is already pretty fast. That, along with the very high prices for the internal SSD led me to go for a minimal sized internal startup SSD, and externals for everything else. The internal SSD in the Mini can't be upgraded, but the price of externals will drop over time, so I think that's the best option.

I have individual SSDs connected to two USB-C ports, and a USB-3 hub connected to another USB-C with a load of spinners for backup and other misc document files, and other external devices down to USB-1 connected to that.

Forget wha you’ve read. Frequent read/writes over many years in a lab is bad for SSDs. You will not hit this in the next 100–200 years. Seriously.

For DP, you want at least 32GB RAM if you use a lot of plugins. You want the biggest SSD the budget will allow. Apps work best on the boot drive as will your active work files and DP is no exception. APFS Snapshots only works on the boot drive—this can save your butt.

Externals are for VIs, your iTunes and Photos libraries and Time Machine. A USB external like the Samsung T5 is fine. An X5 is nearly as fast as the internal but costs more.

DP likes fast processors. If you are using VIs, DP likes more cores. GPU isn’t a big deal.

The Refurb Store has some 2018 Minis right now. You won’t do any better than this one and it’s less than $3K
https://www.apple.com/us-hed/shop/produ ... 977364abd9

You can get an excellent 27” 4K monitor under $300 to plug into the HDMI port. I bought a pair of LGs last week.

mikehalloran wrote: APFS Snapshots only works on the boot drive

Which, on the 2018 Mini can be an external TB3 SSD.

bayswater wrote:

mikehalloran wrote: APFS Snapshots only works on the boot drive

Which, on the 2018 Mini can be an external TB3 SSD.

True but only if
a) If you always boot from the external
and
b) have no Mac OS installed on the internal.

While a TB3 external is nearly as fast as a 2018 Mini, using it as your main drive and wiping the internal makes no sense unless you bought too small to begin with and found out later. Why would someone plan on doing it that way?

mikehalloran wrote:

bayswater wrote:

mikehalloran wrote: APFS Snapshots only works on the boot drive

Which, on the 2018 Mini can be an external TB3 SSD.

True but only if
a) If you always boot from the external
and
b) have no Mac OS installed on the internal.

While a TB3 external is nearly as fast as a 2018 Mini, using it as your main drive and wiping the internal makes no sense unless you bought too small to begin with and found out later. Why would someone plan on doing it that way?

You would plan it that way because a) the internal SSDs provided by Apple are far too expensive, b) it cannot be upgraded to a size that Apple currently does not offer, and c) over time a very large external SSD will be very affordable. That makes it feasible to buy the minimum size you need for now, use externals for everything except OS and Apps, and later to move to a large external and use the internal as a scratch drive.

I've got a 250 internal with DP, Logic, Mixbus, Mixbus 32, DSP-Q, a few hundred plugins, a couple of dozen of the usual VIs, a folder of various audio utilities, a bunch of CAD apps, a few pictures and video apps, the associated manuals and all the free Apple stuff. This uses up about 80G and covers just about everything I do on computers. All the sample libs are on an external SSD, all the current project on another external SSD, and a load of USB 3 drives for backup, pictures, music, and seldom accessed libs of other stuff.

I expect sometime the 250 will get crowded. But that's not likely to happen for a few years, by which time, a 16T TB3 external will be free with a pizza.

I'm also not entirely convinced that Apple plans large internal drives to remain an important part of the overall architecture as they move to modular computers. We'll see when the new pro comes out. My bet is the internal will be enough to get it started and the design will point to externals as needed for everything else.

... and, the tests I looked at when the Mini first came out had the external SSD "as fast or faster" than the internal. I haven't yet installed an OS on the external, so I don't have experience with the relative speeds, but might do that when 10.15 is released to set up a test startup drive. As it is, the Mini takes about 20 seconds from power on to usable status, not as long as the preamp tubes take to warm up. With these drives, I think speed is becoming moot as is capacity.

One more thing, as they say: if there is budget for a bigger SSD, I'd say spend it on RAM first. I got 32G (I added it myself) and it makes a huge difference. At 16 I was starting to see page swaps. 64G was too expensive at the time, but those prices are starting to drop too.

You would plan it that way because a) the internal SSDs provided by Apple are far too expensive,

Let's look at that: A 1T X5 is $500 and a 2T is a grand (round numbers). That's $100 & $200 less than adding when the Mini is Built To Order. I have no problem with those prices to keep projects on the boot drive and reduce clutter.

Now look at the differences in the Refurb Store where there happened to be a few this morning. Both RAM and SSDs are less expensive than adding aftermarket and externals. 1T and 2T when you find them were $400 for 1T & $800 for 2T. There happened to be a 1T version of the one I linked ant it was $400 less. Both are gone this evening. That refurb I pointed to was $504 less than BTO.

I found my iMac Pro used at a bargain. The difference between 1T and 2T is $600 ($400 refurb) but the difference between 2T and 4T is another $1,800 and I couldn't justify that. I need 2TB on board and can get by with everything else over USB 3. With SATA III drives, the SSDs are the bottleneck—there's no difference between USB and USB 3.1 over USB-C. I timed that last week. Anyway, by springing for 2TB onboard, I have no need for an TB3 external such as the X5.

all the current project on another external SSD

Yea... that's a bad idea anymore. Ok, it's not been a good idea since OS 10.4 but, with APFS Snapshots, it's really a bad idea nowadays.

DP is the only app where I've used Snapshots to get out of trouble—I've posted those details before. It couldn't have happened had my projects been on another drive.

Now I do testing and sometimes I just screw around. Just yesterday, I tried to make DiscLabel work in Mojave so I wouldn't have to learn Mac CD DVD Label Maker. Did some deep tweaking based on crash reports and totally hosed my system—details aren't necessary but, without Snapshots, I never would have tried it. I timed it: A complete restore took 92 seconds from the time I threw in the towel till I was staring at my system 5 minutes before I totally screwed up.

... and, the tests I looked at when the Mini first came out had the external SSD "as fast or faster" than the internal.

It depends on the tests and applications. Possibly the smaller ones that are single blades but not the 1T and 2T which are twin blades with a separate NAND controller. These scream.

All the sample libs are on an external SSD

Yea — a USB 3 drive is certainly good for that. My iTunes and Photos are offloaded too.

and a load of USB 3 drives for backup, pictures, music, and seldom accessed libs of other stuff.

Ok, but for someone looking for a new system, why would you recommend that? Now that SATA III drives are under $230 for 2TB. Then you have docks and hubs and... I'm in the same boat and need another drive. Wish I could find that 4TB 860 QVO for less than $500 but I might buy one anyway to just to reduce the clutter.

Speaking of clutter, I have a twin drive TB2 dock on the way so that I can put all of my VIs and non-current projects onto one piece of hardware and connect through the TB2–TB3 adapter. Besides seeing both drives in a single dock, the one I'm getting has a second TB port. I'll try running my 828mkII through the FW–TB adapter to it. I should be able to get the 828 and 2 large SSD showing up in one TB3 port.

I'll still load test drives into the USB 3 toaster but I don't want more than two docks up there.

Wow, interesting discussion. Thank you all for your suggestions and insight. Some of it is over my head, and it looks like I missed the refurb Mike found. I guess they go fast. I'll keep my eye out.

Yeah, I have to figure out the hub situation. I'd like to remove the two 1TB SSDs (used for samples libs) out of the old Mac Pro I'm replacing and put them in a hub. I also have 3 spinner drives (for more samples, for backup, and - at the present - for DP projects, which per Mike can be eliminated by using the Mac mini internal drive). Then there are assorted USB dongles, etc.

I'm also getting a new audio interface - the Apollo X6. And after all is said and done, I just want everything to work together.

Richard

By the way, if I'm reading these links correctly, I can get a new Mac mini with the same specs as the refurb for about the same price.

Mac mini, 3.2Ghz, 6-core, 2TB drive, 8Gb ram (to be replaced), 1Gigabit ethernet: $2,499.99
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _2018.html

64GB ram: $479.99
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/266 ... ullDetails

Total: 2,979.98

Anyone want to double-check my research? I hope I'm right about this.

Richard

Mike, rather than quote the rather long message we've generated, I'll just make three comments: 1) if the incremental cost of larger SSD has gone down, that's great. The difference was lot more, here, when I bought. I don't claim any advantage to having your SSDs as external, just that there's not much advantage on a new Mini. If you can get a good deal on a big internal from Apple, great.

On using USB-3 drives, etc, hell no, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy these new. But if you have a load of them sitting around in good shape and can use them for files where super fast or frequent transfer is not important, you can keep using them on a new Mini. Clearly, as you replace them, it's best to go for newer stuff, and I'll be going for the fastest thing I can afford that can be plugged into the back of the Mini. My point was that with a decent and not expensive hub you can hang a load of stuff off a single TB3 port on the new Mini. It seems to be good at supporting really old stuff: dongles, USB2/3 drives, keyboards, audio and MIDI interfaces, etc., if you want to keep using them.

On keeping projects on the startup drive for speed or reliability: Well, its not any faster, and maybe there's a minor decrease in probability of failure and loss, but I've got the long term habit of ending every session by copying the working folder to another drive that has a backup copy of all my music projects. I've never lost anything since I started sequencing with this on an Atari 520:

https://archive.org/stream/AmigaUserInt ... 7/mode/2up

mikehalloran wrote:Forget wha you’ve read. Frequent read/writes over many years in a lab is bad for SSDs. You will not hit this in the next 100–200 years. Seriously.


The Refurb Store has some 2018 Minis right now. You won’t do any better than this one and it’s less than $3K
https://www.apple.com/us-hed/shop/produ ... 977364abd9

After checking prices for a new Mac mini, it appears you can get a new machine with the same specs as the refurb (minus the ram, which you can get from OWC for $479).

Of course we're discussing two sides of the same coin. It's not even an argument. What one accumulates through years often works just as well. However, I disagree on this:

On keeping projects on the startup drive for speed or reliability: Well, its not any faster...

When a corrupt audio file hosed a 4CD DP project to the point where a complete TM restore was the only way out... Yes, that happened last year between the 9.51 and 9.52 release and reinstalling 9.51 didn't fix it. Restoring via Snapshots to the last clean state before I had installed 9.52 saved me many hours. Obviously that's the Readers Digest extremely condensed version and I'm leaving a lot out.

Anyway, between that and those I know who do large scale rendering, I am a firm believer that work files are best on the boot drive and not getting the size you need is false economy. Production machines with 4TB and 8TB boot SSDs are very expensive (up to $150K for a Win10 box that I know) but those who need them know why. I have been convinced of this since SATA on the G5. With Snapshots, I've dug in deep on this view having experienced the benefits. A 4TB iMac Pro is a ridiculous expense for me but I couldn't justify only having 1TB.

As for just getting 'large enough', swapping files and other housekeeping takes a lot of time and that should be considered. With 2TB onboard, I have to go through this twice a year or so. With a 1TB, I'd have to do it after every project or two—not interested. When Time saved=Money earned... Let's just say that I run the numbers. I do try to make sure they're my numbers or ones where I understand as many of the factors as possible.

While I appreciate the different viewpoints on where to save project files, can someone please address the question of why you’d get a refurb when you can get a NEW unit with the same specs (w. 3rd-party RAM) for the same price. I just want to confirm that I’m comparing apples to apples and that my conclusions are correct. Thanks.

Richard

I prefer separate answers.

remmet wrote:By the way, if I'm reading these links correctly, I can get a new Mac mini with the same specs as the refurb for about the same price.

Mac mini, 3.2Ghz, 6-core, 2TB drive, 8Gb ram (to be replaced), 1Gigabit ethernet: $2,499.99
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... _2018.html

64GB ram: $479.99
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/266 ... ullDetails

Total: 2,979.98

Anyone want to double-check my research? I hope I'm right about this.

Richard

You're right. The Refurb I had pointed to had the RAM preinstalled and was $16 more but a BTO is $3,499.

If you're handy, you can install RAM yourself. This is not like doing it on an iMac so watch the videos before taking the plunge. The iFixIt and OWC tools are a bit more $ than similar items on Amazon. But you know they are magnetized when they need to be—this can be really important with some of those screws. This tutorial is as good as any.
https://9to5mac.com/2018/11/20/how-to-u ... ini-video/

Your link points to B&H. Like everybody else, they now have to collect state sales tax as of April 1 but, if you apply for their credit card, they will eat the tax.

If Portland is in Oregon, this isn't an issue for you, of course.

Thanks Mike! From what I see, Apple offers the same price as B&H (and there's an Apple store 2 blocks from where I work). And yes, here in Oregon we don't pay state sales tax - lucky us.

I am hopeful that I can do the RAM install myself. Keeping my fingers crossed. I wish I were as confident about replacing the charging port on my iPhone which apparently is slightly damaged, making charging a challenge.

R