MOTUnation.com

Apologies for the length, but technical stuff requires it sometimes.

So Audio Units have been really pretty reliable for me, but it's time to switch to VST I think. The AU format is tied directly to Logic, and Logic cannot send MIDI from a Virtual Instrument. Therefore AU currently cannot send MIDI from a plug in, since it's either not in the format itself, or developers of AU do not want to code for that considering Logic cannot use it. Anyway it's the final straw in AU that has me doing what is going to be a fairly painful transition. There are advantages in that Windows machines run VSTs as well.

The main thing is I've come to really like Native Instruments Maschine, Maschine is basically a drum machine, sampler, and loop sequencer with VST hosting ability; a semi-DAW like Reason used to be. A natural workflow for using Maschine as a plug in a DAW like DP9 etc. is to fire the loops (Scenes) in a MIDI track allowing you to arrange those loops in DP etc. This requires the ability to send MIDI from the Machine plug in. Maschine ties in a lot of features that DP doesn't have, or that are not as elegantly implemented, mostly looping type stuff.

Here's the first of many caveats to doing this, I've used AU exclusively for years, I have tons of songs in AU, and the 10-13 projects going right now are all AU. MOTU do not recommend instantiating both AU and VST versions of your plug ins, as for whatever reason DP misbehaves (crashes) when you do. So far it's been crashtastic, I'm not thinking it would be worth my time to go through all my songs and convert to AU, mostly just the ones that are currently not finished. Fortunately you can have multiple plug in sets in DP so it's possible to slowly convert, and open older songs in AU with an AU plug in set. Second Caveat is a few plug ins do not have a VST 2.4 version only VST 3, and DP9 does not host VST 3 yet. Some plug ins are not tested in DP for VST support (Waves comes to mind), and I would guess that MOTU's MachFive 3 is probably more stable in AU (hopefully not I'll report on that), so using the AU versions is going to be more stable.

The plus side is DP sends MIDI from VSTi's excellently, with grace, easier than DAWs like Live which require a more complex set up to get it working, and obviously better than Logic which can't do it at all. Logic has issues with side chaining as well, requiring work arounds to get it running. It's been interesting to me how all DAWs have some odd limitation that other DAWs do seamlessly, with Logic it's side chaining and inter plug-in MIDI, with Live it's the complete lack of SysEx and NRPN, with DP it's the lack of the ability to constrain a MIDI track to a certain section of keys. Obviously to me DP's 'limitation' isn't that big of a deal.

As a dedicated underground noise musician, starving artist hobbyist type I'm not as worried about deadlines etc. as most of you guys, so I'm a good candidate for experimenting with using mostly VSTs in DP on OSX, and I'll report back to this thread my experiences with doing so. Also anyone who has done this, would love to hear your story on the transition.

I don't know if this helps or is totally accurate but when UA updated to 64bit they recommended VSTs as being the better way to go,as it has been explained to me most if not all plugs are actually created in the VST format and some sort of AU wrapper is used to make these work in the AU format.
I switched my preferences in DP to VSTs and have been using VST as my primary format ever since then,I have a few plugins installed as AU and I really don't have any problems.
I recently had a issue with some plug or VI that I couldn't get recognized by DP as a VST (I don't remember what it was)so I called MOTU and the support person recommended switching my preferences back to AU which I would not and did not do.The tech support person stated AU as being the format Mac users should be using,which doesn't really sound correct to me.
So I have most of my plugs and VI's installed as VSTs,some older ones are installed as AUs when I avoided installing VST files.
Since UA told me this I always install both VST and AU formats of plugs and VI's let DP do its thing and use AU occasionally if there's a VST issue like VST3 only or DP doesn't see a VST,for me it's never been an issue but I'm far from a DP power user so YMMV,for me mixing the VST/AU format hasn't been a problem.

kgdrum wrote:I don't know if this helps or is totally accurate but when UA updated to 64bit they recommended VSTs as being the better way to go,as it has been explained to me most if not all plugs are actually created in the VST format and some sort of AU wrapper is used to make these work in the AU format.

It depends, I'm aware Urs Heckman started off using Au only, and like most developers they start off without any wrapper, it's pure DSP code. Some developers use an FXPansion wrapper to get AU, but not all. For instance NI don't use a wrapper per say, but VST is still a better format to use with their stuff, VS U-He where it wouldn't matter at all. Some smaller companies though would be using it.

I switched my preferences in DP to VSTs and have been using VST as my primary format ever since then,I have a few plugins installed as AU and I really don't have any problems.

Good to hear, what I have been doing is the exact opposite, installing VSTi's of the plug ins that I want to get MIDI out from, but I think it will make more sense to go with VST as the main format. For one, although that Expansion wrapper is CPU light, when multiple plug ins have it it ends up costing, so VST is generally a lighter CPU format.

I recently had a issue with some plug or VI that I couldn't get recognized by DP as a VST (I don't remember what it was)so I called MOTU and the support person recommended switching my preferences back to AU which I would not and did not do.The tech support person stated AU as being the format Mac users should be using,which doesn't really sound correct to me.
So I have most of my plugs and VI's installed as VSTs,some older ones are installed as AUs when I avoided installing VST files.

Syn'ex from XILs is not working as a VST in either Live or DP9 for me. Plus Little Microsoft from Sound Toys. Both crash DP and don't even show up in Live.

MOTU tech have a point, VST is going to be less likely to be debugged in OSX considering how many DP users stick to AU, but with all this I'm awarer that certain plug ins are going to just be better or work at all, as AU. With the VST to AU wrapper code in there, and the fact that some plug ins are using it, the situation is IMO that some plug ins are going to be more stable as VST, and some are going to be more stable as AU.

Since UA told me this I always install both VST and AU formats of plugs and VI's let DP do its thing and use AU occasionally if there's a VST issue like VST3 only or DP doesn't see a VST,for me it's never been an issue but I'm far from a DP power user so YMMV,for me mixing the VST/AU format hasn't been a problem.

Yeah that brings up an interesting point, iLock, hardware DSP plug ins like UA, and Wave with the Wave Shell etc. all seem to be more likely to have issues with one or the other format. VST versions of XILs might be a bad idea for that reason, and AU versions of UA not so good; Waves flatly state to use AU in DP for instance.

It's a wash most likely, except for the fact that Apple have sat on AU development for about 6 years now with only minor improvements, while Steinberg have VST3. To Apple's credit the lackluster DAW and plug in developer migration to VST 3 has probably been the biggest reason they haven't invested in AU, barring Logic's limitations.

From Waves own site, you see DP9 as supported in AU only.
http://www.waves.com/support/tech-specs/supported-hosts

Two questions:
• Other than Waves (assuming Waves actually has a real reason for recommending AU), are there any other drawbacks to using VST as your primary or only plugin format?

• Are there any complications from running a mix of AU and VST plugs?

Shooshie

I have tried both ways and couldn't come to a conclusion. I load both.Some, like Antares, are AU only in DP on a Mac. Izotope works just as well either way.

I have no preference nor have I experienced a crash due to this issue. I don't have any Waves plugins, either.

mikehalloran wrote:I have tried both ways and couldn't come to a conclusion. I load both.Some, like Antares, are AU only in DP on a Mac. Izotope works just as well either way.

I have no preference nor have I experienced a crash due to this issue. I don't have any Waves plugins, either.

Curious Mike, do you have both versions of a plug in loaded in Preferences?
I'm currently running both AU and VST of all plug ins all instantiated in DP and it definitely crashes more.
For years I've run mostly only AU, but Geist as a VST plug in, since it's a drum machine plug in that can send MIDI out to other drum plug ins. That never led to any problems.

It might be due to Syn'Ex since it's a newer plug in, and the VST is hosed.

You can set your preferences to display all and make a new set that does exactly that.

Shooshie wrote:Two questions:
• Other than Waves (assuming Waves actually has a real reason for recommending AU), are there any other drawbacks to using VST as your primary or only plugin format?

• Are there any complications from running a mix of AU and VST plugs?

Shooshie

The only draw back is the above mentioned problems with Little Microshift and Syn'Ex not liking to run as VST, and that Cakewalk coded only a VST3 version of Z3ta+2, so you have to use the AU.

For me right now running both an AU and a VST version of all my plug ins is causing some issues. and MOTU do not recommend it. From p846 in the DP9 manual:

DP allows both AU and VST versions of the
same plug-in to be activated at the same time.
While this may be useful in some circumstances, it
may make it hard to tell which format you are
using. In the case of some plug-ins, activating both
formats can cause problems with their operation.
To avoid confusion or operational issues, only
enable one format or the other.

Well, that is certainly a cautionary note. Good thing that I never paid attention or I might have followed it.

It would be interesting to see what plugs they had in mind when they wrote that. No problems, no worries here.

mikehalloran wrote:Well, that is certainly a cautionary note. Good thing that I never paid attention or I might have followed it.

It would be interesting to see what plugs they had in mind when they wrote that. No problems, no worries here.

I dunno? Probably Waves.. That's my guess, anything that has a shell that runs inside AU/VST is likely to cause issues I would venture? ... I know Ab;eton Live has no issue running both.

I will venture another guess, I upgraded Syn'ex to the latest beta after realizing I was a few versions behind, then downgraded to the latest stable version, and still issues even after restarting, but this morning when starting up the Pro no issues running AU or VST versions? ... computers...

Michael, I think the MOTU caution is more to do with using both formats at once in a sequence. I have always had both versions of plugins active in the plugin preferences, and used both, but never both at once, and it has never caused a problem. Having both formats comes in handy because there are sometimes small differences in function, and more often differences in whether the GUI works properly. I have tried using both formats at once in one channel strip in some beta tests, and even that didn't cause a problem, but it's completely unnecessary, and I guess it's best avoided.

Is there such a thing as an AU plug-in that is wrapped to get the VST, or only the other way around?

This may be critical towards deciding which one is better to use as the primary or default format (except for specific plug-ins or VI's where there is a reason to use AU, such as the aforementioned Z3TA+ 2 example from Cakewalk).

Of course, the same question then comes up regarding MAS...

I wouldn't even necessarily care so much, except that I tend to do precautionary saves of my plug-in settings as "User Presets" just in case something goes wrong before a project is completed, and at least until recently it wasn't possible to use a User Preset from one plug-in type to another (though I think this changed with DP9, as I seem to recall a few days ago being able to access all of my plug-in level presets from any plug-in format).

I remain confused about how/where presets are accessed and in what format they are coded, as many of my apps simply don't even support presets for VST; only for AU.

mhschmieder wrote:Is there such a thing as an AU plug-in that is wrapped to get the VST, or only the other way around?

Some older AUs were basically wrapped VSTs, (e.g. the Greenoak stuff?) but these were provided as standalone packages, unlike the Cakewalk plugin you reported. I recall UAD plugins that wouldn't work unless you had other UAD plugins installed (I don't know if they had to be loaded, or just installed). It seems very unlikely that anyone would have built a VST plugin as a wrapped AU.

mhschmieder wrote: I wouldn't even necessarily care so much, except that I tend to do precautionary saves of my plug-in settings as "User Presets" just in case something goes wrong before a project is completed, and at least until recently it wasn't possible to use a User Preset from one plug-in type to another (though I think this changed with DP9, as I seem to recall a few days ago being able to access all of my plug-in level presets from any plug-in format).

I remain confused about how/where presets are accessed and in what format they are coded, as many of my apps simply don't even support presets for VST; only for AU.

Plug ins that don't save presets in their own GUI's are subject to being either VST or AU specific. This is why companies like U-He go as far as to make their own preset format. Of course you can also save the preset to DP, but I think that ends up being AU or VST specific as well. A universal plug in preset format would be great for sure.