MOTUnation.com

Hi.

(This is not going to be easy to explain so I've also made a video to illustrate.)

I've been using DP for a loonng time. I make my living on DP creating trailer music with big templates. I don't post a lot, but I've been around for quite awhile. DP is my main music writing program and it's nice in a lot of ways. That's why I use it.

But there is one aspect of DP that just does not work correctly in my opinion and the problem is that it's not just a minor nuisance, it's a mix KILLER. But I never hear anyone else talk about it. So, I'm trying to see if this bothers other people so a bunch of us can ask MOTU to do something about it.

I'll start by making a request and then get into the problem: Please just make the MIDI automation work like the audio automation.

Here's the problem: On the MIDI side of the app, while playing a sequence: in the measures before you arrive at a user's first automation point, DP moves parameters to preset settings, instead of leaving the settings where you had set that particular parameter. So, let's say the song starts at Measure 1 and your volume was set by you at 14 without any automation present or even having the automation turned on. And then you turn automation on and while playing, at Measure 5, you touch the volume slider for the first time to raise the audio a little bit from MIDI volume 14 to 20-----then on the next playback from Measure 1, the MIDI volume will jump to 127 until it hits your automation point at Measure 5 and then it dives down to 14 to perform your automation move. It messes your mix up.

Audio automation does not do that. Audio automation works correctly. It just leaves things where they were regardless of at what point in the sequence you started making changes.

The best way to illustrate what's going on is with a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78UMUsGczi4

In the video, I automate two MIDI parameters, and then I go to an audio track and automate an audio track for comparison.

-In this video, I start with MIDI volume at 14 and panned left to 20. There's no automation. I play the sequence. It plays fine.
-I enable the automation, then I play the sequence a second time. Just before Measure 5, I make my first automation moves, just slightly raising the volume.
-At 19 seconds into the video, I hit stop after that automation pass and the playback wiper returns to Measure 1. When it does that, look at the MIDI volume fader on the left of the screen. It jumps to FULL VOLUME 127! I don't want full volume 127. I wanted the song to start at 14. 127 is going to be very loud!
-Well, guess what, I hit play and BOOM----it's now VERY LOUD until it reaches that first volume automation point and then it DIVES DOWN. That's not what I wanted in the mix. I wanted the track's volume to start at 14 and then just raise a little bit. Now the volume is at 127 until that first automation. The mix is screwed.
-Ok, let's keep trying. How about pan? At :50 seconds, I start playing the sequence again. You can see the pan is set to 20---mostly left.
-I hit play and I do a little pan move that keeps the audio mostly left. At 1:05, I hit the stop button and the playback wiper goes back to Measure 1. LOOK AT THE PAN KNOB. It jumps to the center!! I don't want the audio to start at the center. It was set at 20! Now the audio is in the center until the first pan automation and then it JUMPS to the left. Again, that's NOT what I wanted in the mix.

-At 1:19, I switch to an audio track to compare how the automation feature works. I have the audio set to -10.5. When I perform automation on the audio track, and then hit stop and the playback wiper goes back to Measure 1, the volume returns to the expected -10.5. It doesn't jump to +6 like the MIDI fader would have! That would be ridiculous! Just like it's ridiculous for the MIDI fader to do!

One might say, well, just put a volume automation point at or near the start of the sequence and then the volume is set. That's an ok workaround in a small session, but it's not practical on massive templates. My trailer template is over 300 MIDI channels. All the MIDI volumes have been painstakingly set over time. I can't remember what volume every channel was set at. And if I just grab a MIDI fader in the middle of a track and automate, it SCREWS THAT TRACK BY GOING TO FULL VOLUME UNTIL IT HITS THE FIRST VOLUME AUTOMATION.

It just makes NO SENSE that it works this way. And again, the audio tracks don't work this way. The audio tracks works correctly.

So, my workflow in DP all these years has been, when I need to automate a MIDI volume in the middle of a piece of music, I need to first stop, hit "0" to return to the beginning of the sequence, turn on automation, click the fader QUICKLY BEFORE ANY NOTE PLAYS to set an automation point, then go back to the point in the song where I actually want to automate volume. If I forget to do this on let's say a big Horns line, then the next time I start the song and horns MIDI notes come in before the first volume automation point, THE HORNS COME BLASTING OVERTOP EVERYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THEY'VE SLAMMED TO FRICKING 127 AND NOW THEY ARE MASSIVELY CRUSHING MY SPEAKERS!!!!!! Yeah that's awesome. Oh yeah, and if you hit undo, it doesn't put the fader back to where it was, so now that volume setting is gone…….now you have to load a backup session to see what the volume was originally set at……

So, please tell me, does this bother anyone else? After so many years, it's driving me nuts! I would like to see if we can get a few people to request a change on this with MOTU.

And I've tried Automation Snapshots and things like that. They tie your hands and if you add new tracks, you're still facing all the same issues.

On the surface, it's a simple request-------please just make the MIDI automation work like the audio automation. I'm sure under the hood, it's not so simple, but the current way is just broken.

Thanks.
-gabe

PS. It's also a problem for me that in the soundbites window, DP won't let you name the actual FILE name with more than 32 characters……you can name the soundbite more than 32 characters, but there's some weird 32 character limitation on the FILE name for some reason within DP…...

You make a reasonable point, that automated MIDI controllers should keep the current value when no automated value is present in the track. Maybe MOTU will make that change.

I would have thought an automation snapshot taken just after the first automation point back to the start of the sequence would do the trick. But it doesn't: it pushes volume to max and pan to centre. Maybe I'm misunderstanding snapshots, but that seems to me to be a bug.

Meanwhile I guess all you can do is drag the first automation point back to the start of the sequence.

Yes Gabe, this has been a bother.

Yea, it seems like it needs something as simple as "FORWARD CHASING"-- where as playback is initiated, it not only looks backward for the last previous volume (or other controller) setting, in the absence of one in the past, it will look into the future for the first controller it encounters and sets the values there. That would give it essentially the same functionality as audio.

I would be curious to see if some special CHASING setting could at least partway remedy some of this.

As a matter of routine, immideately after I write in MIDI automation I select the first data point and enter a 1|1|0 start in the Event Info. But yeah, seems silly. Why can't DP do that like it does with audio tracks?

dix wrote:As a matter of routine, immideately after I write in MIDI automation I select the first data point and enter a 1|1|0 start in the Event Info. But yeah, seems silly. Why can't DP do that like it does with audio tracks?

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate it.

Yeah dix, THAT is a classic workaround. And it's a time consuming one. It takes time to do that on EVERY MIDI channel that you automate.

Wouldn't it be nice if in the middle of a song, you could just enable automation, grab the fader and go? And then you just move on to the next task. But no, we gotta stop, "pre" automate, or re-assign or copy the first value back to the beginning of the song…..How is that an efficient workflow? Especially when you have lots of MIDI track to wrangle?

-g

It's been a long while since I worked with MIDI Automation. Using Expression and Breath Control leaves little need for MIDI Volume (7) Control, which is what the faders write. Nevertheless, I used it in various things over the years, and while it was always awkward, I don't remember it being THIS bad before. Does anyone know when this behavior started? Or has it always been this way, and I just was used to it, long ago?

Anyway, the method I have used in the past was Snapshot Automation. Once your stationary fader levels are set, but before you start recording fader moves, take a snapshot and apply it to all tracks, beginning to end. That stops the jump back to 127.

I'm with the crowd that wants this to work like Audio automation, and even though I can kind of see why it evolved the way it did, it's the 21st Century, and they can make it not have to do those things anymore.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:
Anyway, the method I have used in the past was Snapshot Automation. Once your stationary fader levels are set, but before you start recording fader moves, take a snapshot and apply it to all tracks, beginning to end. That stops the jump back to 127.

I thought so too. So I tried it. See my post above. It doesn't work. It writes volume at 127 from the wiper back to the start of the sequence, regardless of the value of volume at or before the wiper position.

bayswater wrote:

Shooshie wrote:
Anyway, the method I have used in the past was Snapshot Automation. Once your stationary fader levels are set, but before you start recording fader moves, take a snapshot and apply it to all tracks, beginning to end. That stops the jump back to 127.

I thought so too. So I tried it. See my post above. It doesn't work. It writes volume at 127 from the wiper back to the start of the sequence, regardless of the value of volume at or before the wiper position.

Hmm... Not for me. I just tried it, and it works. I did it again and again, and it worked every time on close to 200 tracks. We'll have to compare notes on how we're doing it. Maybe some snapshot settings aren't as reliable as others. Also, I've got it in Overwrite mode when setting the snapshot. I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I hold down the W key while setting the automation mode, so that it applies to all tracks.

Anyway, it has worked every time, so far. (and always did)

Shoosh

I just tried Shooshie's method and it works for me if I have the Snapshot parameters set to properly. However, it's equally, or more time consuming to set that up as it is to just move the first data point to 1|1|00.

Another approach would be to set up your template with MIDI values written on each track from the start. As this guy demonstrates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOWglixolyQ ...i love his videos!

dix wrote:I just tried Shooshie's method and it works for me if I have the Snapshot parameters set to properly. However, it's equally, or more time consuming to set that up as it is to just move the first data point to 1|1|00.

Hardly! It takes about 3 seconds to do 200 (or any number of) tracks! What are we missing here? I can't do a video tonight. Maybe tomorrow, if it's necessary.

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote:

bayswater wrote:

Shooshie wrote:
Anyway, the method I have used in the past was Snapshot Automation. Once your stationary fader levels are set, but before you start recording fader moves, take a snapshot and apply it to all tracks, beginning to end. That stops the jump back to 127.

I thought so too. So I tried it. See my post above. It doesn't work. It writes volume at 127 from the wiper back to the start of the sequence, regardless of the value of volume at or before the wiper position.

Hmm... Not for me. I just tried it, and it works. I did it again and again, and it worked every time on close to 200 tracks. We'll have to compare notes on how we're doing it. Maybe some snapshot settings aren't as reliable as others. Also, I've got it in Overwrite mode when setting the snapshot. I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I hold down the W key while setting the automation mode, so that it applies to all tracks.

Anyway, it has worked every time, so far. (and always did)

Shoosh

I pencilled in some data on a MIDI track with a few notes on it, adding volume and pan a few bars in. Put the wiper just after the first volume data point. Clicked the snapshot command, and set it for all tracks, all active data types and for playback back to start. It changes the volume and pan levels prior to the wiper to 127 and 64.

Shooshie wrote:

dix wrote:I just tried Shooshie's method and it works for me if I have the Snapshot parameters set to properly. However, it's equally, or more time consuming to set that up as it is to just move the first data point to 1|1|00.

Hardly! It takes about 3 seconds to do 200 (or any number of) tracks! What are we missing here? I can't do a video tonight. Maybe tomorrow, if it's necessary.

Oh, I see. You do the Snapshot on the entire project before you write any MIDI automation. Got it.

Here are my steps:
1) After playing with levels for a few hours/days/minutes you get a set of fader values you want to keep. No automation yet. Just fader levels.
2) Create New Mix. This step is unnecessary for demonstrating what we're talking about. It's just something I would be doing anyway.
3) Make sure that Automation is turned on globally, opening Automation Setup, clicking "Global" and closing it.
4) Holding the W key, select Overwrite for the automation mode in the Mixing Board. All channels should go to Overwrite
5) Select all tracks (Command A)
6) Turn on record automation (Command-Click; Click: gets all tracks)
7) Snapshot: Cursor is at bar 1/1/000, so choose From Cursor to End, Selected Tracks (All)

Done.

Now you can record automation on any channel and it will start and return to the levels you set your faders by hand, as you were adjusting things. I don't think I've left anything out. Most of the steps were already done, so it's not like I do the whole list every time.

Shooshie

Hi Shooshie.

Thank you for your input. (I have tried Automation snapshots in the past.) Your workaround is another legitimate workaround like dix's, but again it comes with the price of slowing you down later in the mix because you froze the mix at the start, meaning when you start enabling automation playback, the Track Mutes will be frozen into the Enabled position, so if you want to briefly Mute a track, it won't be brief. You'll have to go to that track, go to the beginning of the session, delete that track Mute automation so you can mute the track while automation playback is enabled. Also, if you want to change the pan, you'll have to go delete that too.

If I was going to try your method, I would adapt your recipe a couple ways:

-First, when you said create a "New Mix". I would hesitate doing that if you have any plugins assigned already. They'll be erased if you choose New Mix. I would do Duplicate Mix if I was to choose anything in that menu to preserve all the plugins.

-Second, on the Automation Setup Page, in the Enable Automation window, under MIDI, I would UNcheck both Pan and Track Mute, or at the very least Track Mute. Then carry on with the rest of your recipe. The less parameters that you write, the less you tie your hands. In my experience, losing an instrument's pan is not mission critical. But losing volume stinks. My preference would be to uncheck pan and Track Mutes. Then after the user does your recipe, then go back into Automation Setup page and the re-enable those parameters. It's still a bunch of steps and things to remember, but this will keep you from losing those parameters.


Ok, but let's dig a little further: Given how DP acts with MIDI automation, I have another problem scenario for you that your Automation Snapshot workaround will not help you with. And again, it just makes no sense that it works this way:

I made another video! I know! So exciting!……. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogmwaPssGCM

In this video, I'm working with Mod Controller (#1) automation. We are now in the middle of a theoretical mix. No Snapshots can help us here. I made a patch in a VI where the Mod Wheel controls a filter cutoff. I then want to automate that filter cutoff. This patch is an arpeggiated bass line.

The video starts, and the MIDI note has already been recorded to trigger the arpeggiator. So, when I hit play, I'm recording the mod wheel automation on the track live. And you can see it being recorded. The filter that's being automated starts mostly closed and gives the arpeggiated bass line a nice mellow feel. As I keep opening up the filter with the Mod Wheel, the sound keeps getting more lively. Great. Sounds good. That's how I want it to sound.

But, what will happen when it loops back to the beginning to play the sequence again? Remember, the sound started out nice and mellow and then got more lively as it went with the filter opening. The next time I hear it, I want to hear it the same way----mellow start and then get more lively. Do you think it will start out mellow?

The answer is NO! The first automation point came after the note was played. It starts out JAMMING----filter OPEN, and then when it hits the first automation point, the filter does an immediate shut down and THEN it gets mellow. This is because DP doesn't remember where the Mod wheel was before that first point of automation because it didn't send any information back to the beginning of the session when I started automating. Again, this is a mix KILLER. Now, I have to go back and move controller automation points around to make sure I put a Mod Wheel automation point BEFORE the note plays to shut the filter down. Here we go, chasing down more workarounds.

Now, if I was automating a Filter plugin on an audio track, I wouldn't have to do that! The audio track automation would have remembered where the filter started and would have played back perfectly the second time around.

So, I keep asking myself, how many things do I need to workaround when it comes to DP and MIDI automation. It just doesn't work the way it's supposed to. MIDI Automation should be one of the most BASIC things DP does for goodness sake! And again, all of these things----volume, mutes, pans, Mod Wheel----all of these things are VITAL to the mix. If any of them get hosed, your intended mix changes! And it's so easy to mess up given how it works at the moment.

I'm glad MOTU keeps working hard on adding new features to DP. But I think they really need to spend some time correcting how MIDI automation is implemented.

(I've been sending these writes-ups to Dave and Matt too. But I want people to chime here and give their experiences. This is what can help make it a more relevant topic for MOTU. Thanks to you guys that have responded already.)

Thanks.
-gabe