MOTUnation.com

OK I'll try to make this short. I don't gripe about DP much, not much to gripe about IMO... but.

I was an early DP user and left ship for a while around 2.7. At that time I used an EMU E6400 Ultra for just about everything. I would use MIDI only for most of the songwriting process, so I would use Chunks to separate out drums, verse, chorus etc. mess around with it in the Song window then eventually consolidate. I loved this workflow. It was a fluke bug in DP and my love for Logic at the time (I'm one of those weirdos that liked Logic pre-Apple buyout but not much after), that had me using Logic etc.
Years later most of my workflow is in plug ins, and using Chunks in the Song window etc. works best if you keep everything in V-Racks. Problem there is the V- Racks are mainly designed for improvising or playing an instrument live, track automation isn't possible, only MIDI automation if the plug in supports it.
So here's my proposal for MOTU on this, and I know I'm probably just yapping with no real chance of being taken seriously: collective or Linked Chunks. The idea would be that anything you add to a Chunk of this sort would be duplicated across all Linked Chunks. So if you change a track name, from say VSL-3 to Cello-3 it changes in all Chunks. All VI's are linked, so an instance of a plug in is actually not repeated in this type of Chunk, and you could still use DP's amazing track automation. Essentially the only difference in the various linked chunks in a project would be what's on the timeline MIDI and audio wise. This would allow users to use the Song window to try out various arrangements quickly.

It's possible now to use clippings and Chunks to a degree in this manner, but you use an open sequence to do this, which works pretty well, it's just not as elegant. I want my old workflow back!

Not that it will do anything, but what avenue would I take to offer up my unwanted advice?

I like it. I might also add...

CHUNK FOLDERS!

I WANT CHUNK FOLDERS!!! DAMN IT TO HELL - I WANT FOLDERS FULL OF CHUNKS!!!!!





(No not HUNKS, CHUNKS!)

Then lack of chunk automation caused me to revert to putting VIs directly into the mix again. Although I typically use MIDI automation for expression/BC, and even volume, I really like having one last automatable trim available, and having the ability to adjust/mute sends is also wonderful. So I'm not using chunks so much these days.

You can still use them to work out parts. If you drag a chunk into an existing chunk DP assumes you just want it's existing timeline data. The problem with this is in the actual plug ins, each plug in in each chunk is it's own deal you dig? So there's that issue as far as the Song window is concerned. VI racks work pretty dammed well for plug ins that aren't really that surgically automate-able, but track automation is definitely the sauce when it comes to mad plug in automation.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I like it. I might also add...

CHUNK FOLDERS!

I WANT CHUNK FOLDERS!!! DAMN IT TO HELL - I WANT FOLDERS FULL OF CHUNKS!!!!!

+1 I often have various versions of the same song or part of a song in ten+ chunks with some naming convention or another, main part MIDI, break audio etc. but I'm admittedly not consistent with this and being able to toss in a folder all the original chunks in a project would be useful.
Honestly these two ideas plus being able to mute MIDI, and the ability to divide and merge track overview regions for editing purposes and I wouldn't have anything to wish for.... OK the font can get pretty tiny at times... but that's about it.

Michael Canavan wrote:.... Problem there is the V- Racks are mainly designed for improvising or playing an instrument live, track automation isn't possible, only MIDI automation if the plug in supports it.

I've been returning outputs from V-racks via Aux Tracks forever with DP. where I can add automation, effects, etc, create folders, groups, etc. I rarely touch anything in my v-racks. Is no one still working this way? +1 on Chunk folders



Frank Ferrucci

Michael Canavan wrote:Problem there is the V- Racks are mainly designed for improvising or playing an instrument live

Really? I thought it was a workaround to deal with only having one active sequence at a time, and therefore having to run separate instances of every plugin for each of them. Doesn't the approach described by Frank deal with it?'

Indeed, VRacks for me mean setting up an ensemble and making as many chunks (cues, versions, etc) w/o having to reload the damn VIs all the time. How that equates to improvisation and live performance escapes me completely. Maybe because it's just not true. Yep, that what it is.

I also use VIs and automation in tracks and it works fine. Seriously, I do it all day and sometimes all night and it always works. So maybe someone needs to:

Hey, it's a PDF now so there's no excuse.

I'd love it if MIDI destinations were treated in the same way audio inputs and outputs are in the bundles window. If I move a project to a different machine or open an old project on the same machine, I can re-wire a MIDI destination without having to do it for each track one at a time.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Indeed, VRacks for me mean setting up an ensemble and making as many chunks (cues, versions, etc) w/o having to reload the damn VIs all the time. How that equates to improvisation and live performance escapes me completely. Maybe because it's just not true. Yep, that what it is.

I also use VIs and automation in tracks and it works fine. Seriously, I do it all day and sometimes all night and it always works. So maybe someone needs to:

Hey, it's a PDF now so there's no excuse.

This isn't totally true, you simply cannot automate plug in parameters in an instrument plug in using track automation if it's in a V-Rack, only MIDI, it's in the manual actually.

frankf wrote:

Michael Canavan wrote:.... Problem there is the V- Racks are mainly designed for improvising or playing an instrument live, track automation isn't possible, only MIDI automation if the plug in supports it.

I've been returning outputs from V-racks via Aux Tracks forever with DP. where I can add automation, effects, etc, create folders, groups, etc. I rarely touch anything in my v-racks. Is no one still working this way? +1 on Chunk folders



Frank Ferrucci

You cannot add track automation from an instrument plug in a V-Rack to an Aux track.
Sure you can automate volume and pan, plus any effex you add directly to that Aux track, but not the cutoff on a filter on a V-Racked instrument plug in for instance.

I guess what I'm running into here is most of you guys don't use track automation for instrument plug ins by default because if you use V-Racks it's not possible? Otherwise you're performing some feat of magic I'm not aware of... likely it's just confusion about track automation VS MID automation...

Michael Canavan wrote: I guess what I'm running into here is most of you guys don't use track automation for instrument plug ins by default because if you use V-Racks it's not possible? Otherwise you're performing some feat of magic I'm not aware of... likely it's just confusion about track automation VS MID automation...

Not really... All that can be automated in the MIDI track (depending on the VI, of course). All the ones I use can do this.

Michael Canavan wrote:

frankf wrote:

Michael Canavan wrote:.... Problem there is the V- Racks are mainly designed for improvising or playing an instrument live, track automation isn't possible, only MIDI automation if the plug in supports it.

I've been returning outputs from V-racks via Aux Tracks forever with DP. where I can add automation, effects, etc, create folders, groups, etc. I rarely touch anything in my v-racks. Is no one still working this way? +1 on Chunk folders



Frank Ferrucci

You cannot add track automation from an instrument plug in a V-Rack to an Aux track.
Sure you can automate volume and pan, plus any effex you add directly to that Aux track, but not the cutoff on a filter on a V-Racked instrument plug in for instance.

I guess what I'm running into here is most of you guys don't use track automation for instrument plug ins by default because if you use V-Racks it's not possible? Otherwise you're performing some feat of magic I'm not aware of... likely it's just confusion about track automation VS MID automation...

Maybe you can clear up the difference? Let's say you had an 8 channel instance of Kontakt in a v-rack, 8 instruments each assigned its own MIDI channel with each instrument's output routed back to DP. How would you automate the cutoff filter of the instrument on channel 1 without using MIDI? Or from the opposite POV, how would you automate that same channel's cutoff filter in the Kontakt instrument track? Also, I'm not understanding your first sentence: "You cannot add track automation from an instrument plug in a V-Rack to an Aux track." Would you explain? Id like to understand this better. Thanks




Frank Ferrucci

I don't know why we still debate this. We've been using V-Racks for almost a decade now, and I'd assume everyone knew how they work, but I'd probably be wrong. Anything that can be controlled with continuous MIDI data in an instrument plugin can be controlled via data in the track itself. As for the kind of automation that is controlled by the little red and green buttons in the Mixing board above the fader, no, that kind of automation can't be applied directly to a V-Rack instrument, but it can be applied to its Aux return. Many instruments have MIDI Learn for every possible button in the instrument, making total automation 100% available in V-Racks. Those instruments whose programmers skimped on the MIDI Learn feature are less controllable.

The virtual instruments I use the most are 100% controllable through MIDI continuous data, and usually by way of MIDI-Learn. Tassman IV by AAS, Mach5, Wallander Instruments, VSL… these all use MIDI to do just about anything that can be done in real time. Most instruments these days are controllable anywhere you put them, including V-Racks.

I don't have anything that I want to control in real time using DP's Automation, but if I did, I'd just put the VI in a track, and not the V-Rack. Seriously, I cannot think of any use for that. Everything I want to automate can be done with MIDI Learn, or by assigning a controller to a function. It's fast and easy.

Shooshie

OK sorry I'm a noted multi DAW user with DP being a favorite, so yeah some of things you would do in Logic or Live you guys do with MIDI. MIDI works fine, the big difference there is automation density. In MIDI a volume track is 128 steps, that's the limitation of MID, in track automation it's generally around 500 steps. OSC has the big advantage of sending that density automatically and people were excited to hear it might replace MIDI for that reason. Devices like Mackie Control get around the MIDI limitation by using NRPNs (non registered parameter numbers), so Mackie Controls faders can send to tracks the 500 steps they can read.

DPs MIDI automation is going to be limited to 128 steps. There are obvious places where a smoother transition is noticeable, volume, and filter sweeps are good examples. Volume is covered by an Aux track in the examples above, but filter sweeps will have to be done in MIDI, and you're back to 128 steps.

Another disadvantage of using V-racks is CPU consumption, there's no Pre-rendering with V-Racks. I imagine you can figure out a way to mute an instrument when it's not being played via MIDI, though of course that's not as elegant as rendering.. I acknowledge this entire thread is just a case of thinking out loud at the ether, but I still think it would be nice if there was a way to use full instrument track automation and pre-rendering in Chunks and not have to have separate instances of the same instruments in each individual Chunk to do it.