Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital gear

[James Steele]

I just got the latest copy of S.O.S. I'm still subscribed and I wait for our new ration of Digital Performer Techniques with bated breath every two months.

There was an article on various external master clocks which included analysis graphs that pretty much says that there's no point in using an external clock if you're not syncing multiple digital devices. In my case, I've been using an HD192 and 24 I/O interface and clocking off a Lucid GENx192 connected to the word clock in of my HD192. But basically the article presents pretty good evidence that even with vastly more expensive clocks, it still works better to have an interface using it's own built in clock and that clocking from an external clock can only, technically, be worse.

I may have wasted my money on the clock, but I suppose it'll be good to have should I have an external piece of gear someday that I'll need to synchronize.

[rodger1811]

Yeah, most of what you read does tend to lean toward the "no need for a replacement clock unless there are multiple digital sources" side. However, I disagree! Although the PCI-424 has a decent clock, it's not what I'd consider to be a great clock. I often wondered why so many of the studios that I've recorded in had Big Ben's etc. until I purchased my own. I went with the Antelope Isochrone OCX and I can tell you FOR SURE that it has made a big difference to me! I'm sure it's not a placebo! I also own a clock from Black Lion Audio that's also a great and inexpensive piece!

I would agree that generally speaking that a lot of external clocks out there are not going to provide and benefits over the internal clock you already have, but the thing is to get one markedly better than what you have. If I had the money laying around, I'd have gotten the Antelope Isochrone 10M but it's $6K!!!

Last thing, I did get a mod from Black Lion Audio on my HD192 which may explain "SOME" of what I hear but I've connected with and without the clock, and I definitely like with! On a side note, If you've ever considered a mod, Black Lion is AMAZING! I did my 2408mk3, and my HD192!

[kgdrum]

I have always believed in the advantage to having a better clock in the system but you might want to look at the article in this months Sound on Sound
they basically say it will not make much of a difference.I was surprised at there conclusions,it was not what I expected to read.........check it out.

[James Steele]

Yeah, most of what you read does tend to lean toward the "no need for a replacement clock unless there are multiple digital sources" side. However, I disagree! Although the PCI-424 has a decent clock, it's not what I'd consider to be a great clock.

I usually would set mine to clock of the HD192's internal clock figuring it might be better than the clock on the PCI-424. My external clock is the Lucid GENx192. But the thing is, if you take a look at the article and the output measured on a scope, the evidence is pretty damning. Even with a extremely high-end external clock you can see a small degradation and increase in noise floor. They do point out that subjectively some might prefer the sound, but in strictly technical terms clocking an interface from an external clock can't be "better." It's rather eye-opening.

I had considered the Black Lion mod on my HD192 (it already had the fan replacement), but I balked at the potential down-time. I understand though they do appointments. I understand the HD192 mod is op amps and not the clock.

[rodger1811]

I'm a subscriber of SOS and I did read the article after your initial post. I see the data but I'm still better of with my setup the way it is in my opinion. I do however believe that maybe for the money I spent, I could have got more bang for my buck purchasing something else however. Also, I failed to mention before that I do have other digital gear that I use. For example, I have a dbx376 mic pre that I purchased many, many years ago. I use it from time to time and I'm using it's digital output. It's not a bad little piece for the money and it's really nice sounding, especially connected digitally!

You ultimately reach a point with your studio that bettering your setup with gear will only get you minor increases in performance/quality. I suppose it's possible that's where I'm on the way to at this point but those little differences are what separate the good from the great. I'm striving everyday to get better. One day I intend to get there!

Yeah, Black Lion is an awesome group! I'm in the Chicago area so they're local to me. I've been to their facility many times and they get my personal stamp of approval! They don't advertise the clock replacement on the HD192 or the 2408 but they did it for me. They use to offer it but I think they don't like the time that it takes for them to do it.

[FMiguelez]

.

James, according to Dan Lavry, your understanding is correct. It's best to use the internal clock.

Check out this crazy thread. Very educational and yes... even entertaining.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index. ... 4/23034/0/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[James Steele]

Well at this point, I may switch back to clocking off the HD192's internal clock. I see no point though in selling the Lucid. May well come a day when I will need this clock for synchronizing another piece of digital gear so may as well hang on to it. I think I got this clock for $400 in a blowout sale.

[labman]

Well at this point, I may switch back to clocking off the HD192's internal clock. I see no point though in selling the Lucid. May well come a day when I will need this clock for synchronizing another piece of digital gear so may as well hang on to it. I think I got this clock for $400 in a blowout sale.

Well James. I can tell you from our experience here, A-B'ing the HD192's (and other motu and Digi interfaces) that hands down the HD192 sounds better off external clock. (In our case Mytek house clocks thru Antelope clock distribution into calibrated monitor systems and room) It aint even close. Better imaging and more listenable tone. "Especially" if you arent running the HD192s full bore at 192k sample rate. (which we never do)

but what do I know... science is science

Why not just run some A/B's for a day with some other folks present whose ears you trust?

[rodger1811]

Well at this point, I may switch back to clocking off the HD192's internal clock. I see no point though in selling the Lucid. May well come a day when I will need this clock for synchronizing another piece of digital gear so may as well hang on to it. I think I got this clock for $400 in a blowout sale.

Well James. I can tell you from our experience here, A-B'ing the HD192's (and other motu and Digi interfaces) that hands down the HD192 sounds better off external clock. (In our case Mytek house clocks thru Antelope clock distribution into calibrated monitor systems and room) It aint even close. Better imaging and more listenable tone. "Especially" if you arent running the HD192s full bore at 192k sample rate. (which we never do)

but what do I know... science is science

Why not just run some A/B's for a day with some other folks present whose ears you trust?

That's exactly the result that I get!

[magicd]

A bit of clarification.

If you have an HD192, you have a choice of two "internal"clocks. The HD192 has it's own clock. You can also choose the PCI 424 card as the clock source. The PCI 424 clock is actually dependent on the computer. The HD192 internal clock is separate from the computer. If you have an HD192, use the HD192 internal clock rather than the PCI 424 clock.

Dave

[rodger1811]

A bit of clarification.

If you have an HD192, you have a choice of two "internal"clocks. The HD192 has it's own clock. You can also choose the PCI 424 card as the clock source. The PCI 424 clock is actually dependent on the computer. The HD192 internal clock is separate from the computer. If you have an HD192, use the HD192 internal clock rather than the PCI 424 clock.

Dave

Hey Dave, would this also be your suggestion if you have additional Audiowire devices connected such as a 2408mk3?

[labman]

= If you have an HD192, use the HD192 internal clock rather than the PCI 424 clock.

Dave

Yup. We toggle between 'HD192 internal' and external 'word clock in' for all comparisons.

[magicd]

Hey Dave, would this also be your suggestion if you have additional Audiowire devices connected such as a 2408mk3?

The 2408 doesn't have an internal clock. The 2408 slaves to either the PCI card, or external sync.

If you have an HD192 and 2408, and no other digital gear, make the HD192 the clock master.

Dave

[James Steele]

A bit of clarification.

If you have an HD192, you have a choice of two "internal"clocks. The HD192 has it's own clock. You can also choose the PCI 424 card as the clock source. The PCI 424 clock is actually dependent on the computer. The HD192 internal clock is separate from the computer. If you have an HD192, use the HD192 internal clock rather than the PCI 424 clock.

That's exactly what I had been doing-- using the HD192's internal clock. As I said, the article makes a fairly irrefutable argument that in all cases the internal clock is "technically" better. You may prefer the sound of the other, but objective scientific evidence supports the author's position. It's a rather compelling read.

[bongo_x]

I've argued this for years, in a way, even though I have no technical knowledge of the subject. Why should that stop me?

Actually, it's just that I've never understood how the external clock was supposed to make it better. It seems to me that it still has to be something like a tape machine chasing SMPTE. The hardware is trying to respond to an external source. Wouldn't the whole process of bringing the clock signal into the piece and integrating it with the built in circuits cause more problems than it solves?

It always seemed like one of those thought processes like "I'm going to convert my 44.1 tracks up to 96k and they'll sound better".

Like I said, I don't really know the details, or care really, it just never made sense on the surface to me.

bb