CHUNKS???

[strikingtwice]

Alright. I've RTFM'd. I've even watched the macaudiolab dvd. I still don't get it. I've used chunks in what I feel like is a really crappy and unorganized fashion. I've also used it to do cetain cues from films and that makes a little sense to me. In terms of a linear track though, I don't get it. Does anyone have a super useful way, maybe even one of your sequences that uses it that I could see? I know there's something about it that seems really useful to me and I don't want to miss this.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Hey David,

"Chunks" is only another word for "sequence." Each DP project can contain as many sequences (chunks) as you wish. That's really all there is to chunks. It is the single most misleading term in DP and I personally hate it. Just freakin' call it a sequence and move on (that was directed at MOTU, not you). In fact, if you "add new sequence" under the DP command to do so, it adds a new chunk. DUH! W-T-effin-F?

As far as how to use ch... um... sequences is a personal preference. For film, what I do is create a chunk (did I mention how much I HATE that word?) for each cue and create a master ch... sequence where the bounced cues are strung together. "Song mode" allows a user to string together chunks (as does a bad meal ) but I am not fond of that method. I realize others are, but I have not had success in making it work for me in the linear context that film and video require. It is probably great for someone who writes songs in a series of sequences. But films are not songs and I personally need absolute control of each component against an absolute timeline. I don't get that with song mode. Someone will try to convert me - please don't bother.

Some users prefer a separate project for each cue. Well, that's not the way the program was designed to work and not the most efficient IMO. Again, I have a chunk/sequence for EACH cue and a master chunk/sequence where I string the cues together to ultimately bounce my final score and sound design to picture.

What I've started doing lately (and it seems to be working well) is to create the first cue (I try to work in a linear fashion from start of the film to the end when possible) and bounce the cue - adding it to the sequence. Then I select the bounced cue and select "create new sequence from selection. The new sequence has just the bounced cue. Then I work on the next cue, bounce it and add to the sequence, and select the first and second bounced cues and create the next sequence until the film/project is done.

The only "liability" is that if you change one cue, the pointers to that cue in earlier sequences contain the earlier version. Not such a problem. In fact, It makes it easy to "go back" to the earlier version as sometimes happens.

Hope that helps a little in terms of the process that, at least, I use. others have a variety of other methods. I may mess with Song Mode today to see if it has gotten any easier since i last used it (in DP 4 I think). I seriously doubt I'll use it. When I was using Studio Vision Pro back in the day, I used song mode all the time and it worked great. I never wrapped my head around how MOTU implemented it.

BTW, have I mentioned how much I HATE the word chunks? I guess it reminds me of all the times I got too drunk...

[mhschmieder]

Yep, we blow chunks (when sick), but don't blow sequences. An unfortunate choice of words indeed.

When I describe this unique feature to people outside this forum, I always stick to the word "sequence". DP gets a bad enough rap as it is...

[Shooshie]

Song Window was more useful back before the age of Drag & Drop. Yes, DP is really that old. Consequently, we've got legacy features that may not be as useful now as they were when there was no other really good way to put sequences together. Now you can drag a sequence into a sequence (er... drag the chunk into another chunk's Tracks Overview Window) and accomplish the same thing with practically no trouble at all.

Having said that, there have been times when I needed to superimpose things a certain way, and the only way to do that was in the Song Window, where I could drag things around and arrange them exactly as I wanted to hear them, instantly and without typing a lot of numbers. That's simply not possible in the Tracks Overview Window (well, not impossible, but certainly not as easily as with the Song Window) When you use the Song Window, the Chunks metaphor becomes clear. Think Lego Building Blocks. It's rare that I use the Song Window today, but it happens occasionally. I've got sequences from the 1980s that use it extensively, and thanks to MOTU's amazing determination to keep DP compatible over the years, they still open just fine in DP 7.1. Even my windows are exactly where I left them... 20-some-odd years ago.

So, what purpose do Chunks serve now? The most common use is for playlists or multi-movement works, especially where you'd like to hear the movements played one after the other with little more than a pause between them. There are controls in the Chunks Window and its mini-menu that allow you to set the End-Time of each sequence, at which point playback will automatically jump to the next sequence and continue to play until it encounters either the last chunk or a chunk with no End-Time set.

It is also in the Chunks Window that you can set the Start Time of a sequence. This can be useful to have the sequence begin at Bar Zero, giving you an empty measure at the beginning of the sequence for setting controllers, light cues, and so forth. It is also needed for multi-movement works which you want to sequence with a linear measure count. Thus, Movement II might start on bar 272, Movement III at 560, Mvt. IV at 625, etc. That's especially useful for a Theme and Variations. Chain the chunks together with the Chunk Chaining commands, and they'll play through with only a pause -- as they'd be played in performance.

The Chunks Window also gives you direct access to V-Racks, where your virtual instruments can be kept so that they are accessible to all sequences in that file. V-Racks can also be used for keeping Aux tracks that are used for routing and processing audio with plugins. For example, you can put your Reverb track there, and you won't have to open a separate instance of reverb in each sequence. All of them will send it there for parallel reverb processing -- or you can make it directly in line for wet/dry processing before passing it on to the Master Output. Such a V-Rack can save you a lot of time setting up a new sequence for audio output from your VI's and MIDI rack units. Save the V-Rack to a Clipping, and you can instantly set up audio output for a new sequence by merely dragging it from the Clipping File to the Chunks Window. Instant Audio. If you prefer to locate those audio Auxes within the main sequence, just drag it to the Tracks Overview Window, instead.

One other use for Chunks is to make working copies of your sequence kind of like a snapshot of certain versions that you might like to keep before making changes. Not for use as an actual backup, these copies give you something to go back to for comparison or to use as a safety. You might want to bring other sequences into your file to use for reference, copying bits here and there, or checking tempos and pacing. They're right there in your Chunks window, and you don't have to leave your current file to listen to them. I don't think most DAWs have this feature.

What if you want to try an 8 bar segment 4 or 5 different ways, to be able to hear them and compare? Chunks are your answer. Select the tracks and range, then drag the bars directly from your sequence into the Chunks Window. It will copy just those bars into a new Chunk. [note: if you have aux tracks or empty tracks, it will not copy them unless they contain data. The easiest way to give them data is to take a snapshot of the empty tracks. Controller data will be inserted at the insertion point, and they will be recognized as active tracks when you drag them into the Chunks Window, making it possible to have complete sequences in each 8-bar chunk, so that you can hear your audio and plugins, etc., exactly as you set them up.] Once you have dragged, say, 4 copies of that passage to the Chunks Window, you can begin changing them up as you wish, then play through them and hear one after the other. When you decide on one, drag it back into the appropriate location in your sequence (delete the original bars, first), and you're ready to move on.

That gives you some idea of the usefulness of the Chunks Window and the Chunks inside. The audio setup examples are huge timesavers. You probably know that Chunks can be dragged into any order, for setting up playlists and such.

There's probably more, but I've gotta go...

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

So essentially, they use the word chunks so that they will avoid the use of the phrase "sequencer-sequencer"?

Wouldn't calling a chunk a sequence and a song a series of sequences be easier on the grey matter?

[Shooshie]

So essentially, they use the word chunks so that they will avoid the use of the phrase "sequencer-sequencer"?

Wouldn't calling a chunk a sequence and a song a series of sequences be easier on the grey matter?

If we had been present when they were making all this stuff up, I'd be willing to bet that one of the key requirements was to make names as short as possible, and one-syllable when they could think of a word. The 128K Mac's monitor had a dearth of available space, and the less of that space taken up with GUI names, the better.

Chunks
Song
Tracks
MIDI
Event List <---whew! 10 characters long!

On the other hand, once you've made a header on a window, it doesn't matter how long the name is, as long as it fits across the window.

Well, one thing for sure: I wish they'd changed it to Sequence way back there somewhere. In the menus they are known as Sequences. What if the name had caught on, chunk had become both the verb and the noun, and everyone was saying things like "yeah, I just chunked that song yesterday." You can sequence a sequence, so you can chunk a chunk. What if "delete" was called "chuck?" "Oh it was a lousy chunk, so after I chunked it, I chucked it."

And what if "Play" was called "Hurl?" And what if "Save" had become, say, "Grind?"

Oh, I'm just sitting here hurling chunks, chunking some new chunks, and chucking the old chunks that won't hurl...[pause] That's right, I chucked 'em. [...] Yep. Chucked. [...] What? Well why shouldn't I chuck a chunk if the chunk won't hurl? You don't expect me to Grind Chunks I can't Hurl, do you? [...] Well, sure, if I can Hurl Chunks, I Grind 'em. If I Grind the Chunks that I oughta Chuck, they'd be Ground Chuck. Ya can't Hurl Ground Chuck, ya know? [........] Huh? What's a woodchuck?

Shoosh

[MIDI Life Crisis]

All this reminds me of the woman who arrived late at work one day complaining that she got so drunk the night before that when she got home she blew chunks. Her coworker said "don't worry, it's normal and good to throw up after ingesting that much alcohol." You don't understand" the woman replied, "Chunks is my dog's name."

[KEVORKIAN]

If you are songwriting and sketching an outline for a pop or rock song or any verse/chorus/verse (A/B/A etc) type of track, then using chunks and combining them in the song window is pretty handy.

I use a main sequence to sketch out the song parts and as I arrive at a good verse, for instance, I select it from wherever it occurs in the timeline and copy it out to a new sequence. I'll do the same for the chorus, and continue this process for any variations.

Then I can combine those chunks in the song window and play with the arrangement. Any tempo variations can be added to the conductor track and should be included in the individual chunks.

It works pretty well actually and after you have a basic outline of the song you can merge the chunks that make up the arrangement into a new sequence for further enhancement.

Another cool trick: Since you can overlap and juxtapose chunks in the song window you can use that feature to play with song variations. Here is the scenario:

You come up with a good chorus: Drums (call this "drums A"), and a complimentary Bass and Guitar part. Later you come up with a cool drum variation (drums B) that you might want to try over the chorus at some point but you are not sure yet.

Make new sequences by selecting the conductor track and the following:
drums A
drums B
Bass and Guitar

Then, you can alternate between the drum variations by placing them right above the guitar/bass part in the song window to see how it sounds. This works with MIDI as well (place your Drum instrument in a V-Rack).

[Dan Walsh]

she blew chunks. Her coworker said "don't worry, it's normal and good to throw up after ingesting that much alcohol." You don't understand" the woman replied, "Chunks is my dog's name."

Thanx for makin' me blow snot all over my monitor. That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while.....

[MIDI Life Crisis]

OK, so here's my question: You have several sections in various tempi and meter. How does Song mode deal with the tempo? I understand you said the conductor track needs to be set, but DP cannot play in two separate tempos at the same time, can it? Overlapping and cross tempos (one section against another) isn't really possible. What will DP do to resolve that? Use the tempo of the new or old piece or what?! By my method, I'm dealing with audio, so that isn't an issue (not that I do that kind of writing very often...)

@ Dan Walsh: Ha ha ha! That's one of the oldest jokes in the book. The PDF Joke Manual, of course!

[bongo_x]

This comes up every so often, and I try to figure it out and don't. I've played around with chunks and vracks but none of it clicks, or sticks. I don't know if the DP workflow is awkward in this area or it's just me. Sometimes I have trouble following these things in writing.

Are there any videos, online or DVD, that show how to use these? I find that sometimes these things make more sense when I see them in action. This is kind of recent discover that I finally realized about myself. I find this kind of strange because I spend a lot of time reading but very little time watching TV or movies.

I'm taking the DP manual with me on trip tomorrow, maybe I'll buckle down and try to work through it again. I'm not at all convinced that chunks or v-racks are something I need, but I could be missing out on something. I never used the "tracks" view and didn't see the need for it until the other day, and then I suddenly realized some way I could use it.

bb

p.s. I actually can't get the hang of clippings either.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

You cannot create a single thing in DP without using chunks because chunks ARE sequences. That's all they are and ever shall be.

[Shooshie]

This comes up every so often, and I try to figure it out and don't. I've played around with chunks and vracks but none of it clicks, or sticks. I don't know if the DP workflow is awkward in this area or it's just me. Sometimes I have trouble following these things in writing.

If you're getting along fine without them, then nothing is lost. I figured them out at some point, and can't live without them now. Goes to show, what you don't know can't addict you.

Are there any videos, online or DVD, that show how to use these? I find that sometimes these things make more sense when I see them in action. This is kind of recent discover that I finally realized about myself. I find this kind of strange because I spend a lot of time reading but very little time watching TV or movies.

Funny how that works. I have to put my mind in a certain "gear" for that. It's a matter of visualizing what you're reading. That's one reason I put so much detail in what I write here. It may be harder to read it all, but it's easier to visualize what you're not familiar with when there are lots of clues.

There are probably numerous videos available for rent/pay, but I don't know of any offhand for free, unless that guy over at Expert Village has one. But you couldn't pay me to go find out! (not a fan of Expert Village, here) I keep telling myself that I'm going to make some videos like this, but then I don't get around to it. Someday I will.

Just duplicate a project in the Finder, then boot it up and use it to experiment. Duplicate the sequence a couple of times in the Chunks Window, and try out some things. Select some VI's, then move them to a V-Rack using the Project/Sequences/Create V-Rack from Selected VI's (or something like that) Menu.

Range-Select something like an 8-bar phrase of MIDI in the Tracks Overview Window, then drag the selection into the Chunks Window. When you see it highlight the window, then let go. It'll make a new chunk out of those 8 bars. You can drag those back into the Sequence, or any other sequence, over and over, if you want to.

I'm taking the DP manual with me on trip tomorrow, maybe I'll buckle down and try to work through it again. I'm not at all convinced that chunks or v-racks are something I need, but I could be missing out on something. I never used the "tracks" view and didn't see the need for it until the other day, and then I suddenly realized some way I could use it.

Oh, man! The Tracks Overview Window is one of the most powerful features of DP, and it separates DP from the rest of the class. There is so much you can do there, so easily. Before there was a graphic editor window, this WAS the graphic editor window. It was pretty coarse, but it enabled you to work with measures -- bars -- and quickly select, copy, paste, merge, drag, duplicate, insert, snip, splice, and so on. Emphasis on "quickly." Very easy. Because it tends to select entire bars, it's easy to use without having to mouse around so precisely. It grabs all of a bar, not just the notes, so even when you grab only a single bar, it's sort of like range selection. You can quickly select all, then choose a single track, and you've got all of that track (only) selected. There is SO much that you can do in the Tracks Overview Window, SO fast. Need to duplicate your chorus for the next bridge? Just select it and option-drag to the next bridge. Done.

I kid you not, there is so much you can do in the TO window. If you use it, I think you'll grow much more attached to DP.

p.s. I actually can't get the hang of clippings either.

Clippings are simple: select something, then go to the Edit Menu and pull down to "Save as Clipping." There are two kinds of clippings; Project Clippings and Digital Performer Clippings. I always use the latter, because they show up in every project.

You cannot create a single thing in DP without using chunks because chunks ARE sequences. That's all they are and ever shall be.

Amen

Except for Songs and V-Racks. Songs and V-Racks are Chunks that are not Chunks. Er... Sequences. And now, V-Racks show up in the Mixer alongside the tracks of every Chunk. As if they weren't confusing enough as they were, now people have to realize that those tracks aren't actually in their sequence. But wow! How handy!

[Shooshie]

OK, so here's my question: You have several sections in various tempi and meter. How does Song mode deal with the tempo? I understand you said the conductor track needs to be set, but DP cannot play in two separate tempos at the same time, can it? Overlapping and cross tempos (one section against another) isn't really possible. What will DP do to resolve that? Use the tempo of the new or old piece or what?! By my method, I'm dealing with audio, so that isn't an issue (not that I do that kind of writing very often...)

It's been a while since I've done this, but I used to do it at least a couple of times a week, so I know it's pretty easy to figure out. I think it works like this: sequences abutted end-to-end can each use its own Conductor Track. I think you select linearly the chunks whose conductor tracks are to be used. But those stacked on top of each other will default to the tempo of the selected chunk. (once you use the Mini-Menu command to follow the conductor track)

There is no way to stack chunks vertically so that they each have their own tempo. If you want varying tempos in different vertically stacked chunks, you will need to record them all at the tempo of the main chunk, but record them out-of-time.

The Song Window is not a stopping point. It's not a place for editing music, and even its playback is rudimentary. Use the Song Window only to lay out your chunks, like a paste-up board for desktop publishing. Once it's laid out, convert it back into a sequence. THAT'S when you select the conductor tracks to be preserved in the new sequence.

From the new sequence, you can then edit normally.

It may seem like Wonky Window to you, but I can promise you that I've created effects with it that could not be created any other way without mucho effort to the degree of pointlessness.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Thanks Shoosh. It is as I understood it all to be.

Without chunks there can be no notes, no audio, no nothin' but a super MIDI router/VI host called DP. Not even an audio recorder. Just a chunkless app with a giant manual. So when I read a post that people don't 'get' or 'understand' or worse don't 'use' chunks it makes me realize their miscception is absolute. If they DON'T use chunks at all then they're really not doing any recording or sequencing. It's not unlike referring to 'The Google. '

As for song mode, your post reminds me why it is useless. If tempo is not independent during overlapped sections it is more of a PITA than any of my methods. Good for simplistic linear writing, but if you have to write in one tempo but trick the app to playback in another, then the program becomes a hinderance rather than a tool. Your apt app approach is appreciated but not applicable for my musical apparitions. Apparently.