After splitting MIDI notes for individual drum tracks

[JHayes]

In DP4,
I've layed down drum tracks with an Alesis DM5, and split the MIDI notes to separate tracks for mixing.(Output to apple software synth for sounds)

Problem is, the individual drum note tracks seem to be linked somehow. If I pull a fader down to reduce volume of a track all the other drum sound tracks respond with a lower volume also.(although their faders do not move)

I also set the DM5 to pan all sounds to center so it would end up that way when I split into tracks. The drums are panned all over the place

help?

Jerry

[Shooshie]

See if they respond to Expression control. What's happening is that your hardware unit is responding globally to CC#7, Volume control. You can see if your unit will multitrack with a different MIDI channel for each track. What you've multi-tracked in DP will have to be reproduced in the unit.

This is just one of the failures of the legacy of MIDI, a protocol that was not necessarily all that well-thought-out or applied by instrument manufacturers. Still, it's been amazingly robust considering that it was created for instruments of 1980.

Shooshie

[JHayes]

thanks Shooshie

Yeah MIDI is giving me fits right now. in DP i'm only outputting to software samples and the pan/volume linking just won't go away. Is there a way to strip the pan and volume MIDI data from my tracks? The DM5 drum unit won't output separate MIDI channels for different notes (would have been my first choice)

I do have an Alesis Fusion HD8 that may be able to do it. I'll see if I can trigger the sounds on the Fusion and have them sent to DP on different channels.

[Shooshie]

There are many ways of deleting automation data. You can go to the Search menu, then have it find and select any Controller #7 (Volume) controls or Pan (CC#10), and simply delete them. Be sure you only do so in those tracks, and not for anything that you want to save such data for.

You could go into the automation layers in the Sequence Editor, show the Volume layer, double click on any control point for CC#7, and it'll select ALL of those. Then delete... etc.

[kenrinc]

I used to do what your doing quite a lot. It sounds to me like all the tracks are on the same MIDI channel. Make sure that in addition to splitting out the notes to individual tracks that those individual tracks each have their own separate MIDI channels.

Ken-

[Shooshie]

I used to do what your doing quite a lot. It sounds to me like all the tracks are on the same MIDI channel. Make sure that in addition to splitting out the notes to individual tracks that those individual tracks each have their own separate MIDI channels.

Ken-

Absolutely. I implied that in my first post, but realize that I didn't emphasize it enough. This is a matter of tracks AND MIDI channels. Most units will allow for this, but I've seen some for which CC#7 was a global command. Then again, that was a long time ago. You can almost certainly multi-track, multi-channel in the unit you're talking about.

Shooshie

[adriano]

Hi JHayes and Shooshie,

I thought that Drums from "MIDI sequencers" are always assigned to "Channel 10", that's why the volume goes down on all the notes that were split.
For the panning, like JHayes described being all over the place, usually that's a "Pan" preset from the factory.
JHayes said: He centered all the Pans on the DM5. I thought in order to do that, a System Exclusive needs to be sent to DP from the DM5, (before any drums are recorded) to set all drum notes to center. There should be a function on the DM5, that needs to be turned on if it's not, called: TX MIDI, TX Messages or something like that.
Jhayes, since you are going to output to apple software synth for sounds, try these CC:

Place them in this order on every drum track. Make sure that, the note # is the same in CC#98

Panning individual drum sound from a drum kit
CC#=Value
99=28
98=Note #---example, 40 E/Snare, 42 F#/Close HHat and so on
6=L=0, C=64, R=127

For the volume do this
99=26
98=Note#
6=0=No volume,64=Half, 127=Max

Adriano

[Shooshie]

Thanks for setting me straight Adriano. Yes, it's a problem when every drum channel must be 10.

The information you posted is fantastic! Are those CC assignments used widely? To reiterate what you said, for each track -- all of which are set to Channel 10 -- you're going to use 3 CC's to set Pan and Volume.

CC#99 = 28 for Pan, 26 for Volume
CC#98 = Use this value to direct the controller to a particular note within the track (CC# = Note#)
CC#6 = Sets the value of the pan or volume.

So, each time you have a setting change, you must include all three controllers almost like a rolled chord, correct? I suppose that you only need change the first two parameters when you're changing from pan to volume or back, and when you're changing to a different note.

It could be tricky when multi-tracking, since overlapped command triads would get misinterpreted. Am I right? Tell me if I've misunderstood anything, and thanks for the great info!

Shooshie

[adriano]

Hi Shooshie,

Are those CC assignments used widely?

From what I have seen, no!
Not even companies that sell MIDI files, use all that MIDI has to offer and I don't know why.
I know that MIDI has it's limitations, but I have managed in the past, to create material for customers, who have requested strictly MIDI file format and have been very impressed and pleased. Can you believe that I still use some of the old sound canvases from Roland?

Those CC# are not it. You can also tune each drum instrument in a drum kit, you can add reverb and chorus to drum instruments, resonance, attack, Vibrato rate/depth/delay and a few others.

So, each time you have a setting change, you must include all three controllers almost like a rolled chord, correct?

Yes, all three CC# must be applied

I suppose that you only need change the first two parameters when you're changing from pan to volume or back, and when you're changing to a different note.

I don't know if, I understand you correctly on this one. Do you mean you have to sacrifice one for the other? If so, no!

It could be tricky when multi-tracking, since overlapped command triads would get misinterpreted. Am I right? Tell me if I've misunderstood anything, and thanks for the great info!

Not really or at least never experienced any issues, except for,going over note polyphony.


I wanted to attach and image with an example setup, but I can't figure out how to.
If you or anyone on the forum need more info, please ask away.

Adriano

[JHayes]

Awesome info guys! Yes, assigning to different MIDI channels freed up the "Linked together" problem, but I ran into the "all drums on 10" problem. I'll try your CC setups tomorrow. I'll also turn on sysex in the DM5.

Hey, how about we make 12 identical drum sound sets to select from the drop-down menu? I guess each drum set would need to be a self contained software synth (soft synth 1,soft synth 2,etc.)to select from the menu. That way it wouldn't matter about "all drums on channel 10 only"

or has that been done?

[JHayes]

hmm...

To save a ton of time searching for drum sounds you want to use, the individual software synths for drums could be set up as:

Drum synth 1) Kick Drum sounds
Drum synth 2) Snare sounds

Drum synth 3) Toms
Drum synth 4) Crash cymbals

etc.

a feature like this would be great

[adriano]

Awesome info guys! Yes, assigning to different MIDI channels freed up the "Linked together" problem, but I ran into the "all drums on 10" problem. I'll try your CC setups tomorrow. I'll also turn on sysex in the DM5.

Hey, how about we make 12 identical drum sound sets to select from the drop-down menu? I guess each drum set would need to be a self contained software synth (soft synth 1,soft synth 2,etc.)to select from the menu. That way it wouldn't matter about "all drums on channel 10 only"

or has that been done?

Hello JHayes, once you turn ON "TX Sysex", I'll assume that each drum instrument should be set to "center" individually on the DM5. If so, while you're doing that, make sure that DP is recording (receiving Sysex data). If the preset of a drum instrument is not already centered, lets say "all the way left", by the time you bring it to center, in DP you'll end-up with about 60-64 Sysex. Pick the last one recorded (Pan Center) and delete the sysexes prior to that. You might also want to move the sysex (Pan Center), earlier in the first measure.

I don't know about making 12 identical drum sound set......
Maybe someone else may have more knowledge than me. Sorry
Anyway, I hope it works out for you, if not, just post again or send me a PM. I'll be more than happy to help.

Adriano

[JHayes]

Awesome info guys!

Hello JHayes, once you turn ON "TX Sysex", I'll assume that each drum instrument should be set to "center" individually on the DM5. If so, while you're doing that, make sure that DP is recording (receiving Sysex data). If the preset of a drum instrument is not already centered, lets say "all the way left", by the time you bring it to center, in DP you'll end-up with about 60-64 Sysex. Pick the last one recorded (Pan Center) and delete the sysexes prior to that. You might also want to move the sysex (Pan Center), earlier in the first measure.

I don't know about making 12 identical drum sound set......
Maybe someone else may have more knowledge than me. Sorry
Anyway, I hope it works out for you, if not, just post again or send me a PM. I'll be more than happy to help.

Adriano

Will do those things and see how it goes. As far as separate drum synths working I'm going to give it a shot using multiple Apple software synths installed, or maybe something can be done through unisyn? Wish I was a wiz at code.

[kenrinc]

I went back to read the first post. It sounds like your using the DM5 as the sound source for these tracks? I guess that's why all the talk about CC and such. I worked at a local studio about (jeesh) 14 years ago (gulp) where I was in charge of doing this stuff.

Our typical setup was a electronic pad kit going into the DM5. MIDI data went to DP and we also piped the stereo out to the board and recorded it to tape as a "guide". We used this just to ascertain the performance. Sometimes we used it in the mix, although not very often.

Once the performances were OK'd by the producer, we'd break out the drums into separate MIDI tracks, give them individual MIDI channels and send the output to a Emu EIV sampler. The EIV had 8 individual outs and those were piped to the console. And as Jerry mentions, I spent weeks building "custom" programs that contained "All Kicks", "All snares" etc.... So when we built the mix, the producer could listen and if he didn't like the kick, we'd just transpose the note up or down to get the kick we wanted. We'd have maybe 80 kicks or snares or whatever spread across 80 notes or so per program (cymbals were mic'd live).

At the time, I thought it was a PITA but once you put in the work of building the "kits" it did work rather well. Fast forwarding to the present with the advent of virtual instruments it's actually easier to do this NOW than it was back then

I'm guessing your talking about presets in Model12. Easy enough to do. $.02

Ken-

[JHayes]

Easier to do for some than others! lol Yes I'm doing exactly as you posted with the DM5, recording the DM5 audio sounds for reference, and splitting the recorded MIDI info to trigger software sounds. I'm writing songs and solving this one problem will help get all this equipment "out of the way"

I do think it's worth-while. From producer's/engineer's points of view it would be a priceless time saver. I'll see if SonicBirth can create some self contained plug-in synths.

Your using the 8 track sampler was nice.. Maybe two of them (16 channels total)would be ideal, but like you said I'd rather have software to do it to make a drum kit of any size.

btw, Music Annex?